Okay, we give. This will be Idolator’s last OiNK-related post unless some actual news drops. There will be no more “commenting on the commentary.” Seriously. Hell, if I post anything else about it at all, I promise to give each and every one of you a dollar. Because we have officially hit the “Godwin’s Law” portion of our program. Actually it’s way more distasteful and embarrassing than Godwin’s Law.
What scares me the most about all this is the loss of a revolutionary feeling. Why are all these people, most of them young people, on the side of the government? Do you know what the government does? Are you familiar with the 60s?
Before civil rights, were these the same people who were like, “Well it’s the law, so let’s go lynch some peeps.” (Note: yes, lynching was the law in the South. It was the law.)
I mean, seriously, do you have any ability to think for yourselves?
And that’s why we’re officially checking out of this “conversation.” When you have people comparing the theft of albums to the revolutionary politics of the 1960s… well, thank goodness Rosa Parks and the family of Medgar Evers can take some solace in the fact that you’re keeping the struggle going by stealing that Deerhoof record. Forget even falling into the crater-sized holes in the recycled “b-b-but we’re turning people onto new music!” argument, let alone the ongoing fallacy that a vote against OiNK is a vote for the RIAA. How can you honestly, earnestly compare Matthew Perpetua’s thoughts on OiNK to the mindset of a lynch mob* and expect anyone to take you seriously? How can you just not realize how monstrously offensive and misguided it is if nothing else?
Some Obnoxious Title I’m Not Going To Bother Typing Out [This Recording]
* Full disclosure: they took a few shots at us as well, though I’m not sure they think we’re as bad as the KKK.
@pissy elliott: What? Who’s self-promoting?
It just gets my hackles up when people start making weird, wild
accusations without even trying to justify them. (I know, I know, this
is the internet, but still.) If Alex isn’t a liberal, then I take it
back.
Vague, poorly informed conspiracy theories are the new ironic slogans.
@bob loblaw: sorry if i wasn’t clear — it’s kind of inside baseball (two degrees of “professional” separation from the author), and i ultimately agree with you/general concensus anyway! double stars, everybody wins.
@mike a: Er, the oinkers were being compared to the Civil Rights advocates fighting against lynching. Which is insane, offensive and really kinda dumb.
The Freedom Riders had nothing on Oink users!
The internet will be the end of us all.
erm, i don’t want to be in the position of defending this guy given his analogies are absolutely absurd and his overall logic makes no sense. but, i do feel that coverage of ‘oinkgate’ has been a little troubling to me in the sense that people are so quick to shit on oink users without taking in the larger capitalist context in general (that is if anyone cares anymore about being anti-capitalist these days). sure sitting on your lazy ass and downloading the new kanye west record is far from revolutionary. but i still think the internet in general is maybe the only forum left for any kind of revolutionary/political action given how much the u.s. in particular has ever-more become a police state/capitalist paradise. and yes, oink was just one tiny facet of a network that stepped outside of these choking institutions. and people’s rush to condemn its users rather than seeing the bigger picture - whether that be how fucked musicians are by the RIAA oink or no oink, or just the greater political climate in general- leaves me to conclude that if you’re not defending the RIAA by shunning oink, it’s at least a tacit endorsement of the powers that be. and of course i wanna see indie artists get paid and make a living too. at the same time, if that means keeping a system going that is part of the larger problem in general, and has more or less fucked over these musicians in anyways, than i’d opt for oink or something oink-like. sure the whining and entitlement from oinkees is annoying and obnoxious, but i can’t see that as worse than the industry at large. it seems odd and a waste of time to focus on these whiners cause it doesn’t help anybody.
@sleuthee: i like you.
Whoa! Thanks bringing back middle school US History lessons there, Alex. Next up: “Custer and his peeps ruthlessly slaughtered by injuns”. Let’s all get our coloring books, now.
Ugh. Can you explain why the first step of your “revolutionary action” is to fuck over the people whose work you enjoy soooooo much?
I’m not for the fucking RIAA, and I’m not for a lot of the more crooked practices of the record industry. I don’t think anyone who is arguing against assumptions of the culture of entitlement that just happens to be exemplified by Oink this week is in favor of any of that. If you’re going to extrapolate that from the arguments put forth by myself and Maura/Jess and whomever else, you’re not paying much attention because the point we’re arguing — the ONLY POINT — is that it’s ridiculous to pretend that a self-serving action is in fact some form of political rebellion. We’re not asking anyone to stop, we’re just asking for some basic self-awareness.
It is kind of funny how back in March, Idolator was so much on the anti-RIAA (pro-oink?) tip, tthat I was prompted to write the below post. Now the tide of public attention seems to have shifted (at least on this site) so that I am no longer so out on the rhetorical limb by myself.
[30frames.blogspot.com]
Though I will say that my poor social skills and hygiene do leave me out on the actual limb alone a good bit of the time.
i’m not saying step 1 is to fuck over indie artists. nor do i consider that a political/revolutionary act. but you make it sound like all of these actions take place in a vacuum. sure the act of ‘illegaly’ downloading a record from oink will cause short-term collateral damage (to put it the most charitable way i can), but the inverse of simply perpetuating the system as is makes for a much worse scenario. obviously we have to think of new ways to keep music available to fans and make it possible for artists to keep doing what they’re doing. but ‘basic self-awareness’ sounds more empty and complacent to me than sitting on your ass and downloading music to begin with. at least for me, it’s not about self-awareness it’s about changing the fucking political/economic foundation altogether (again, that’s if anyone’s actually invested in doing that anymore). i don’t want to be naive enough as to think i have any idea how to do that, but certainly going after people on oink is a step in the wrong direction. and sure it sounds ridiculous and self-serving to focus on something like music downloading as a legitimate political debate when we have bigger fish to fry, but all these things are inextricably linked in my mind.
My brain is fucking melting over here after reading that bullshit. Thanks a lot, Idolator.
These half-baked counter-culture arguments have to stop. I’m sorry, but if you think using OiNK is an adequate criticism of capitalism you are incredibly naive - and, dare I say - hopelessly bourgeois. And that’s the scary thing here - that this does seem so much a rerun of the 60s, when people tended to assume that narcissistic consumption equated revolution, but now we don’t have the bracing actual social and political liberation of the 1960s.
I am currently mourning OiNK in a very real way, but no more than I mourned napster, or audiogalaxy. I left SLSK without a second thought when bit torrent raged.
How did OiNK mainstream music downloading in such a powerful way? Does everyone actually believe the RIAA hype that this is going to curb anything? It may curb some torrenting for the next month or so, but once people calm down it will be non-business as usual.
OiNK was just a place on the internet to trade music. There will be another one. Soon. Probably one that already exists will step up its tech to include some of the great OinK features and claim the throne.
OiNK is a symptom. We all know the causes, there are about 1,000,000 different ones. Busting a big dealer doesn’t take away the demand for drugs. Someone else will come. Seriously.
To make one last point: there is justification to say downloading from OiNK is civil disobedience. If that service was legit, and legal and for profit, I would gladly pay for it. Labels have to understand really well organized and community based torrent sites are a BUSINESS MODEL, and one they are competing with. Free sites right now aren’t just free. They provide a better product for free than what is offered legitimately. Create an OiNK killer and you will have many customers back.
@sleuthee:
You lost me with “u.s. in particular has ever-more become a police state/capitalist paradise”
Puh-leeze. Overly dramatic perhaps? As a card carrying member of the Liberal party of America I can’t stand when such inane statements are made. Police state? Really? It’s the equivalent of a right winger saying abortions are performed freely and daily in Times Square.
Anyway…Like Flux said, have some self-awareness people.
I think we can summarize everything using the “fell off the truck” model.
If you are shopping for a HDTV (music) at Best Buy (record store) it costs $2000 ($12.99).
If you know a shady dude who sells stolen merch out of his van (OiNK) you might get the HDTV (music) for far less…maybe $500 ($0).
Clearly a lot of people will go with Stealer McThief and his van, but 1) No justification of “sticking it to the high prices of Best Buy” (RIAA) make it right. and 2) you didn’t fucking get the stolen merchandise to make some political statement, you did it because it was cheaper (free).
– — –
I like to think people are not so stupid enough to ignore the fallacy in their/these arguments, but each day more and more crap gets posted that I question any previous assumptions of intelligence.
Golf clap @ the Mozzfather.
Again, there is NOTHING revolutionary about downloading music for free. Nada. Zip. If someone wants to call me a pro-RIAA/major label/big business freedom hater, so be it. This stuff is really cracking me up.
@Swankster: “Police state? Really?”
We’re coming up on 1 million people on the federal no-fly list, and there’s serious debate in congress to require government approval for citizens to take domestic flights.
Yeah, smell that freedom.
highlighting a few of the most ridiculous analogies and using that as a springboard for bitching about the pervasive sense of entitlement is misleading and pointless.
most people who illegally download don’t have a strong political or moral framework (half-baked or not) for their actions - they just like music and continue to get it for free because the chances of getting caught are very slim. perhaps the evil empire that is the record industry makes them feel a little less guilty, but that shouldn’t be confused with some kind of mission statement that applies to most users of oink.
taking positive byproducts of oink and characterizing them as pathetic excuses is equally twisted. mock the “turning people onto new bands” concept if you will, but the fact is that more music reaches more people as a result of services such as oink. and many of these people support bands by going to shows and (gasp!) actually buying records that they like. it isn’t justification for file sharing, but this particular effect is a good thing no matter how you slice it.
meanwhile, idolator remains suspiciously quiet about the origin of their “leak of the day” albums…
sleuthee, don’t you see though? Everyone who’s arguing about the “”sense of entitlement” that oink users have”" aren’t capable of seeing the bigger picture. They’re so stuck in the old ways that they are, in fact, whether they will admit it or not, arguing for the industry in this continuing pointless debate. You’re completely right - these people DO view this situation as if it was occurring in a vacuum with no view of any larger picture and it’s frightening and alarming to see all these bullshit call-outs on the oink crowd/bloggers.
I think Idolator has done quite a bit more than simply “try to create some “basic self-awareness” amongst oink users”. It’s quite apparent that they never understood the community and what it meant to any of those involved and how it REALLY influences the larger picture.
Instead of taking this arguement into the larger picture (isn’t that what you claim you try to do?), each sucessive post on here seems as if it was written in about a 5 minutes reactionary spiteful fit of anger - instead of analyzing or even attempting to understand what the community was about or understanding it’s larger impact on the music world. Sorry you aren’t as into the music as the oink users who wanted to find every out of print ep or single from their favorite old bands or those who wanted the ability to download some obscure act that may be playing at pianos that night just so they could see a show or hell, just wanted to explore a new scene.
Oh well. I guess we can’t all see the light.
@mullingitover: We’re also coming up on 47 million Americans without healthcare. A fact that you can mull over at the next benefit show for a sick musician without insurance.
@mullingitover: Go to Burma.
@chim_richalds: Have you ever heard of these things called “blogs”? Some of them even post full albums! It’s crazy, I know!
@SabreFanCS: “Sorry you aren’t as into the music as the oink users who wanted to find every out of print ep or single from their favorite old bands or those who wanted the ability to download some obscure act that may be playing at pianos that night just so they could see a show or hell, just wanted to explore a new scene.”
this is the funniest comment i’ve read all day. thank you!
@SabreFanCS: I don’t know if it’s below the belt to Google, but if you’re the same SabreFanCS from the Dave Matthews Band fansite, then I’m glad you found OiNK.
@janine: exactly! i’d still be a dmb loving fanboy if not for oink! It helped me overcome my problem - and it’s a BAD thing?
so this has no escalted from a bunch of self righteous music nerds who are pissed off about losing an illegal download service to a discussion of.. what exactly? The RIAA and it’s place in creating an overarching American police state? Becuase that’s what it seems like. Despite the fact that oink wasn’t shut down in America or by the RIAA. Nice to see some perspective on the internet.
@SabreFanCS: No. I’m pretty sure no one is saying it is. I don’t even think they’re saying that it’s possible to stop downloading. They just want people to acknowledge that it’s neither a right nor a victimless crime.
Shoot, judging from the comments, I’m the only one here who’s never downloaded music (though I have some mix CDs from friends that have suspect provenance). IMO, there’s even one album that should be downloaded illegally: Chinese Democracy. No joke. I’m stealing the fu*k out of that. You hear me RIAA?
I do not think that that was the problem…
@SabreFanCS: You are absolutely so full of shit that I have no idea where to start. I love this whole “stuck in the old ways of thinking” argument that is continuously parroted by serial downloaders. You’re right. I’m totally fucking wrong in my thinking! I believed that artists deserved to be compensated for their hard work, you know, being that I am one! But now I found out that I’ve just been stuck in my old ways and was never really into music because I didn’t join a smug community of superior-acting “music lovers” who believed that music was to be given to them whenever they wanted for free.
@Lucas Jensen: I don’t think anyone argues that artists should be fairly compensated for their work. But you’re being too fucking Lars Ulrich thick-skulled to realize that there are three groups of people that download music - those that download and never pay a penny to the artist - those that download and ardently support the artists at their live shows - and those that download and then buy the cd when/if they can.
If you really think that your “art” should only be heard by the rich bourgeois that has all the money to throw down on every obscure act/cd, then so be it - have fun playing to empty shows and earning just as much money from your cd’s as you would have if downloading didn’t occur in the first place.
You can’t really be an artist in this day and age and not understand this concept.
*shouldn’t be fairly…
and i would think that the group that downloads and never spends on penny on said artists is in the minority - ESPECIALLY amongst a certain “smug community”
@SabreFanCS: “Sorry you aren’t as into the music as the oink users who wanted to find every out of print ep or single from their favorite old bands “
Anybody who is truly “into the music” will spend the time (and money) to actually seek out and buy physical copies of ablums, singles, or an ep. Personally, downloading an album does not feel the same as owning a physical copy. True fans will always seek out physical copies of their favorite music because over time that’s what really resonates, not computer files.
@SabreFanCS: If you really think that your “art” should only be heard by the rich bourgeois that has all the money to throw down on every obscure act/cd, then so be it
OH COME ON!!!!
@The Van Buren Boys: that’s the fundamental difference that lies between the older and younger crowd I think - I don’t personally feel the need to hold on to the hard physical media -it’s meaningless to me.
The music is all that matters and it stands alone in my mind. I don’t need to hold on to a physical copy to feel a closer attachment to the artist.
@The Van Buren Boys: you’ve hit a nail on the head there! The thrill of the hunt, digging thru stacks and stacks of vinyl and CDs and tapes at every yard sale and thrift store you find and the sheer joy when you finally flip to something you’ve been trying to find for years. For me, that’s such a huge part of the fun of collecting music - plus actually LISTENING to that find, over and over again, instead of listening to it once or twice before you move on to the next of the 80,000 mp3s you’ve downloaded. That’s really why I quickly stopped downloading much of anything, it wasn’t really fun and I soon had way more than I could actually pay attention to.
I prefer the physical specimen for several reasons.
1)Album art, lyrics, etc. -I have vivid memories of ripping the packaging and devouring booklets, the thank-yous, etc. I know not everyone is this sentimental, but I am.
2)From a collector perspective - Something to be said about having all your CDs/Vinyl displayed and calling out for play. You can touch, feel, see what you own. Also, not prone to disappearing if your hard drive dies.
3)Cost & Value - Though big-time downloaders often toss out claims of $20 CDs, I don’t know who sells CDs that expensive. Amazon, big-box retailers, etc. all are in the $8 - $15 range. An iTunes “album” costs $9.99 and you get pesky DRM constraints. Why would you pay the same money for less? I don’t get it.
I think downloadable albums should either be much less than CDs, or give you the option of getting the artwork somehow.
@ maura: i don’t know what kind of shady blogs you frequent but the majority do not post entire leaked albums. either way, it doesn’t matter - the albums you feature are illegally circulated advance copies and it’s quite likely that they were originally leaked on oink by a shadowy release group. i know, i know, what you’re really up in arms over is the sense of entitlement or whatever…but come on, it’s kind of hypocritical, no?
I’m failing to see an acknowledgement of the ever-more-obscure-but-still-vital distinction between major and independent labels. Even in these strange days when Merge and Saddle Creek are putting albums in the top ten, independent artists without the monetary backing of multinational corporations are vastly more dependent on the financial support of their listeners. I don’t think it is at all unreasonable to say that downloading a major label act with a soft(er) place to land if sales dissapoint is less ethically and logistically problematic than downloading a new Touch & Go or Kill Rock Stars band hanging on by the skin of their teeth.
I have an old issue (April/May ‘06) of Magnet lying around where Jason Lytle talks about the breakup of Grandaddy, and while there were myriad reasons, one of the major ones was simply that the band could not support itself. The band was not smart with its finances, but still, think about it: a relatively successful band on V2 with merch, touring income, songs in movies and $75,000 from a Honda commercial still went broke and broke up. I don’t see any reason to think this phenomena isn’t going to become more common. Downloading did not kill Grandaddy, or any other band, but I believe to some extent it exacerbates the difficulties inherent in the independent framework, where 5,000 in sales can make a big difference. To some extent, the music itself is what’s at stake here. A long-term free-music model is simply unsupportable. And I’m pretty sure if you can afford high-speed internet, you can afford CDs or iTunes downloads.
Until the collapse of the last vestiges of the label/crit/media/advertising monoculture and the fracture of music culture into numerous isolated sects, paying for music is a lot like voting: a noble, impotent, idealist gesture.
Generation Yhine
Writing a review about an album is not remotely illegal, or even associative with illegal downloading of an album.
Take the free download trial to see if you want to buy the music idea; You have an idea of the music and the actual music, all without ever paying the artist. Now, look at the idea of writing a review (like Idolator), you have the idea of the music, but you still have to seek out the music (legally, illegally, telepathically, etc.) to have the music.
The didn’t provide a server that links you to others from whom you can obtain the music. They stopped providing direct downloads of things deemed questionable so there was no copyright infringement, and thus illegal downloading from their site.
Yes, they provide a link to where you can obtain the music, but at that point, anyone who wanted the music (and reads blogs) could’ve found the music in <1 minute of searching.
If you’re attacking them for writing reviews of albums before they are released to the public, you’re actually attacking the institution of music criticism, which often releases reviews of music before it is available at Best Buy.
And if turning people onto new music because they downloaded stuff they would never hear if they didn’t have to buy it is such a great thing, why are music profits still declining? The music is still available digitally, physically, and in just as many (if not more) concert choices as earlier periods when music was far more profitable, but profits are declining. Just because the recording industry may not be using the best business model does not explain this loss of profits (Potential profits could be greater, everyone agrees on that, but actual profits should not decline if people are being turned on to more music, no?)
honestly the biggest problem i have with people denouncing oink or file-sharing at large is the implicit legitimization/deference to private property more generally. that to me is the larger context. just as a physical analogy to the file-sharing debate, imagine if libraries had not preexisted current copyright law. i can only imagine the reaction people on this site would have if someone decided to open one. unfortunately what people seem to miss is that art or commodities in general are not INHERENTLY commodities. they are constructed as such. there’s no ineffable law that says music should be sold as a commodity. if anything, the advent of p2p networks has torn the logic of commodity exchange (at least for music) to shreds.
@sleuthee: i’ve been grappling with the same issue - i don’t know why the discussion doesn’t go in that direction.
ESPECIALLY with the Radiohead release being what it was - Pay what you want (can)
Please cite the specific law or regulation that allowed lynching in “the South” in the 1960s. Please include which branch of “the government,” federal or state, passed and enforced this law. Then please tell us why we shouldn’t be disgusted at your comparison of that to OiNK users.
why don’t you throw the good ol’ “there are more important things to talk about anyway - world famine/genoicide/etc” in the post too? It’s the only thing missing from your pathetic coverage of this.
“3) Only a delusional moron would say that the person who chooses ‘free’ over ‘pay’ is making an evil decision, or is stealing something. Choosing what’s best for you in the context of the market is what capitalism is all about! Paying for something you can get for free is practically a communist precept.”
Ugh. I think this speaks for itself. First he rails against people for siding with ‘the government’ or ‘The Man’, then he praises capitalism and goes for a ‘red scare’ argument…
“Do you know what the government does? Are you familiar with the 60s?”
I don’t know if I want to weep tears of blood or put that on a
t-shirt. Vague, poorly informed liberal cliches are the new ironic
slogans.
“Are you familiar with the 60s?”
Yes, and I prefer the times with the hot fucking and better drugs and the idea that counterculture should consist of more than having your fucking consumerist needs slavishly enabled.
I am taking an Internet break. This is too much.
@bob loblaw: i really should recuse myself from this INCREDIBLY IDIOTIC CLUSTERFUCK OF SELF-PROMOTION, but i will just note that to call alex carnevale a “liberal” is inaccurate.
wow, that Alex Something or Other managed to take everything I hate about OinkGate ‘07 (we’re just trying to get more poeple to hear the music; if more people hear it, more people will buy it; if you post mp3s you lose your right to attack me; outdated business model; entitlement bullshit) and wrap it in an American flag. Congratulations Alex Whatever- you are a douchebag.
the bestest of the best: “Only a delusional moron would say that the person who chooses ‘free’ over ‘pay’ is making an evil decision, or is stealing something.” Choosing what’s best for you in the context of the market is what capitalism is all about! Paying for something you can get for free is practically a communist precept.” Remember that when your car totally isn’t where you’re sure you remembered parking it.