We here at Idolator get all of our legal knowledge from the creative products of Dick Wolf, so it’s probably best for us to call in for outside help on thornier issues regarding the law. Which is why we’re proud to welcome the new Idolawyer: Please say hello to John P. Strohm, who practices at Johnston, Barton, Proctor, and Rose in Birmingham, Ala. In addition to representing both bands and indie labels, Strohm played with Blake Babies, The Lemonheads, and Antenna; now, he plays music under his own name. Strohm’s musings shouldn’t be taken as straight-up legal advice, but he will offer insight into legal issues out there that are a bit complicated in the minds of non-lawyers (a.k.a. most of us). Yesterday, we talked about Phish’s claim that they would go after people who wanted to scalp tickets to their upcoming reunion shows by repossessing said ducats. Some in the comments section found this ludicrous–but as it turns out, according to Strohm, the band has every right to do that.
See, the ticket you hold is less a physical item than a contract. The ticket gives you the license to sit in that seat for the duration of the event, but the vendor (Live Nation or whomever) can take that license away if it deems the right to. It’s all in the fine print on the back of the ticket–you know, the stuff nobody reads.
…when you buy a ticket, you’ve entered into a contract and you’re bound by the terms and conditions that are stated in the tiny print on the ticket…those terms and conditions include limitations on transfer. The way I understand it, when you buy a ticket for a concert, you are entering into a license agreement for the right to sit in the seat, and that license is revocable…you do own the ticket - the paper it’s printed on, that is. The rights you gain by that paper are more along the lines of a license.
Strohm directs us to the Live Nation Web site’s terms and conditions (emphasis added):
The ticket you purchase through Live Nation Tickets is a revocable license. The ticket holder is subject to inspection upon entrance to the ticketed venue, and should such holder refuse to permit such inspection, holder’s money shall be refunded. Any violation of law while attending the ticketed event may result in holder being removed from the venue without refund of any portion of the ticket price or charges. The holder of the ticket voluntarily assumes all risks of property loss and personal injury arising during its use whether prior to, during, or after the event and agrees that Live Nation, the venue, its management and affiliates of the event are not liable under any theory whatsoever. The ticket is non-transferable. Any transfer, attempted transfer, resale, counterfeit, or unauthorized copy is grounds for seizure from and/or cancellation without refund.
There’s also strongly worded language about “third-party resellers,” sometimes referred to as scalpers (again, emphasis added):
The resale, or attempted resale, of a ticket for a price in excess of the original purchase price is not permitted. Live Nation Tickets reserves the right to cancel, without notice or compensation, any order or portion of any order when Live Nation Tickets determines, in its sole discretion, that an attempt has been made to resell tickets in violation of this policy. In addition, Live Nation Tickets reserves the right to restrict or deny ticket purchasing privileges to anyone that Live Nation Tickets determines to be, or has been, in violation of this policy. Because Live Nation Tickets does not guarantee the authenticity of tickets purchased from any third party reseller (such as brokers or individuals), Live Nation Tickets recommends that you purchase tickets directly through Live Nation Tickets or from the venue’s box office to ensure ticket authenticity.
That seems pretty definitive! Strohm notes, “If your sister gives you a ticket she can’t use, it might technically be a prohibited transfer, but the company wouldn’t take issue.” But it would be a problem for Live Nation, he adds, “if you stand outside the venue and scalp your ticket or sell it online, etc.” Both the sibling-swap and the scalping are prohibited transfers, but the latter would obviously be viewed in a less favorable light.
Got any more questions for the IdoLawyer? Hit us up at tipsATidolatorDOTcom.
yes, but it will never happen, considering that even Ticketmaster scalps tickets (through TicketExchange) and that the new online ticketing website set up by Live Nation will probably do the same.
Or they will go after Craigslists scalpers, so they can also have a monopoly on the scalping business.
Buying reduced price tickets from online scalpers for unpopular events has been a hobby on mine for a few years. I’ve seen some stellar shows for less than face value that way.
@D.R. Mosby:
Phish is apparently operating under the delusion that, even after you buy a ticket, the band retains ownership of it and what they are really selling you is one untransferable license to attend the concert. I don’t know if there is any legal precedent for this idea (not being a lawyer myself), but I would doubt that they have any right to enforce such restrictions.
And on top of that, I have a (Ticketmaster) ticket on my person that I was too lazy to turn over and read. Said ticket sez…”(t)icket is a revocable license. Management may, without refund, revoke this license or refuse admission for noncompliance with these terms.” And also, “(u)nlawful sale or attempted sale subjects ticket to revocation without refund.” The phrase “attempted sale” seems fuzzy, though - does it mean an “attempted unlawful sale” or does it mean any attempt at selling the ticket? Regardless, I think I know who would win in the case of Ticketmaster vs. D.R. Mosby.
An event ticket isn’t just like a license, it IS a license.
Droop, it can and does happen. I worked at a ticketing company and we employed people whose sole job was to go after scalpers. They used scripts to scour craigslist and eBay to find people reselling tickets at higher prices. How did we find them? Seat locations.
Once they were discovered, we would cancel their bar codes on the tickets and send them email to advise they violated the terms and conditions, etc. so their tickets were no longer valid. Oh boy, were they hopping mad.
What’s worse is for the buyer/fan who shells out a lot of money for scalped tickets. Some really unscrupulous people would still sell the tickets and NOT tell the buyer that the tickets were invalid. When the buyer shows up at the venue the bar code will advise they bought scalped tickets which are invalid. They are SOL. Crying is usually involved.
So, the moral of the story is either a) don’t resell tickets for higher than face, or b) don’t publish your seat locations when selling, and/or c) uhhh, buyer beware.
In general, pre-printed tickets need to go away completely, but there’s no great solution yet. Too many venues can’t handle all tickets at will call.
I want someone to go after these scalpers. We will know their names and Phish will make them famous.
Why is there still not a band called DickWolf?
Criteria = Awesome band, awesome songs. Prevent the World might be the best song about the struggle between following your dreams of rock stardom versus climbing the proverbial corporate ladder. It’s so inspiring, for me it’s about incorporating more art into my life, about letting art fill the empty spaces around me and in time bringing art to the forefront while business is more of a tool than a way of life.
I have a little podcast blog if anyone cares to discuss further or just wants to visit and be cool :) [livingears.blogspot.com]
I’m stuck in a basement world, where even if i tried
to make rock my living, it wouldn’t coincide
So how will i reconcile six years of life with the rational urges
well i still stay home
you’re preventing the world from hearing my songs
imagine if the world could get behind it
the combined strength would propell us all
and release us from our stilted social norms
i’m believing, what i’m feeling yeah is finally coming true
right now to forever, the rest is up to you
so don’t lay cold
they force you to make a choice but you dont have to choose
social norms engrave the way but you can bend the rules
(who am i?)the choice you make but not because its cool:
theres a better way, we all want you to know
So does this mean that Ticketmaster will stop selling seats in advance to scalpers themselves? The local “broker” has ads listing seats for events not yet on sale.
@JohnPStrohm: and me too (even though I’m not a “musician,” but rather a frequent Idolator poster).
Isn’t Dave Riley also an atty? Or am I confusing him and Santiago?
Santiago only I think - he represented Touch and Go Records against the Butthole Surfers in the Walthal v. Rusk case - which was decided by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit back in ‘99. That case is a cautionary tale for indie labels that release records on a handshake (as I know many still do). Interesting copyright case if you’re so inclined.
@JohnPStrohm: We WOULD be so interested to hear more about it, John. Hint, hint.
If Mr. Strohm is at some point unable to perform his duties as Idolawyer, might I suggest John S. Hall of King Missile as a substitute? After the “Detachable Penis” lineup of King Missile split up, he went to law school and then started a firm which specializes in entertainment law. (However, he is now in private practice.)
Always nice to hear about other musicians-turned-music-lawyers. I’ve heard about John S. Hall, and I enjoy King Missle. I’ve encountered his partner Quinn Heraty in practice, but not John.
Other musicians of note that have become entertainment lawyers include my friend Stephen Pederson from Saddle Creek bands Cursive and Criteria, David Kostiner from Creeper Lagoon, Santiago Durango from Big Black (who is a litigator but has handled matters for entertainers), and Lyle Preslar from Minor Threat, who graduated from law school last year. I don’t know what Lyle is up to now, but last year he was runner up in a paper contest sponsored by the Grammy Foundation’s Entertainment Law Initiative, a charitable group I work with. I don’t get starstruck easily, but, I mean, Minor Threat…
I’m sure there are others.
Two more come to mind: Elizabeth Elmore (Sarge/The Reputation) and Alan Korn (Cat Heads/X-Tal). Alan defended Negativland against SST Records in one of the numerous lawsuits.
Michael Gerard from Killdozer as well.
Joe Escalante of The Vandals has a law degree and worked in entertainment law in the 1990s. The last hour of his Friday radio show on Indie 103.1 (in LA) is devoted to answering listener calls about issues relating to entertainment law.
what about the seats that are forfeited?
Do they get re-sold through ticketmaster, livenation
& the band’s website link?