Every week in the “Shhhh-it!” AnonIMous Super-Secret Music-Biz Interview Series (S-I!AS-SM-BIS for, uh, short) we interview a grizzled music industry veteran via the topsy-turvy world of instant messaging. This week brings an interview with TheThingThatShouldNotBe, an editor at a metal magazine and a longtime aficionado of the genre. TheThingThatShouldNotBe has a lot to say about the state of metal today and is fairly sanguine about the prospects for metal print magazines in this deleterious time for the music industry. He poses a theory as to why metal fans are so devoted, chastises Idolator for its lack of metal coverage, and takes on the lack of metal on year-end lists, particularly that of Pitchfork:
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i mean, pitchfork reviewed a fistful of metal releases throughout the year, some quite favorably, but when it came time to make up their top 50 list, not one metal title was on there
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: same with the onion av club list - not one metal title
StumpyPete1975: I think it’s the problem with consensus
StumpyPete1975: there is that one metal guy on staff
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: it bugs me because they’re not claiming to be parochial indie-only sites, they’re claiming to be covering the best of current music
StumpyPete1975: yep
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: and yet, when the year ends, their true colors are revealed
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i mean, i don’t have to pretend to like bon iver or whoeverthefuck, you know?
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: when i make a list of the best albums of the year, it’s gonna be the best METAL albums of the year, and everyone reading it knows that going in
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: but pitchfork wants to expand their stylistic purview - until they don’t
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: and it winds up being disrespectful
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: and an inaccurate portrayal of culture as it exists on the ground
Metal machine music after the jump!
StumpyPete1975: I follow metal on the fringes like a lot of indie rocker types
StumpyPete1975: but what’s the state of metal as you see it in 2009?
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: 2008 was a fantastic year for metal. literally dozens of incredible albums by big and small bands. judas priest, metallica, guns n’ roses (yes, i really liked Chinese Democracy, a lot), ac/dc, amon amarth, opeth, in this moment, gojira, meshuggah, the sword, nachtmystium, i mean, i could go on and on
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: we picked a top 50 and left stuff out, you know? it was a great year
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: and i think metal continues to sell better than other genres - not platinum or anything, but double-digit thousands of copies for indie label releases, which is as good or better than bands getting pitchfork hype
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: plus, metal fans are fiercely devoted - they’re lifers, in from age 12-13 to the grave for the most part
StumpyPete1975: I’ve noticed that
StumpyPete1975: my metal friends eat, breathe, and sleep metal forever
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i’m not sure what 2009’s gonna look like - i know there are albums coming from mastodon, killswitch engage, deftones, lamb of god (i’ve heard that one and it’s great), napalm death, others
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: but the general economic decline may hurt the genre as it hurts everyone else
StumpyPete1975: sure, but it’s nice to hear someone excited about their place in the biz!
StumpyPete1975: haha
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: new slayer album this year, too - can’t not be excited about that
StumpyPete1975: of course
StumpyPete1975: I mean, those guys just keep on keeping on
StumpyPete1975: it’s pretty amazing
StumpyPete1975: why do you think that metal bands inspire such devotion AND have such longevity?
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: mostly it’s because they play to their strengths - slayer, motorhead, iron maiden, napalm death, amon amarth - these are bands that don’t make massive stylistic left turns
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: they know what they’re good at, they know what their audience wants, and they give it to them
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: also, the atmosphere of a metal concert has to be taken into account - it’s very ritualistic and cathartic
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: metal bands don’t jam - they play the songs exactly as you know and love ‘em from the album
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: the chorus comes in and everyone pumps their fists and shouts along - it’s a ritual
StumpyPete1975: do you think it’s easy for them to get stuck in ruts, though, without the stylistic shifts?
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: one person’s rut is another person’s defined style
StumpyPete1975: sure
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i don’t think change is a universally good thing
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: when the jesus & mary chain turned down the feedback, everyone realized “hey, this band can’t play and they’ve only ever written one song”
StumpyPete1975: hahaha
StumpyPete1975: I was JUST ABOUT TO SAY THAT
StumpyPete1975: although I still liked that one song
StumpyPete1975: so I’m with them forever
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i have the first four albums in my ipod
StumpyPete1975: indie audiences (and others, too) are always CHANGE CHANGE CHANGE
StumpyPete1975: and then when someone does change they get pilloried for it
StumpyPete1975: hell, most rock audiences are like that
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: that’s because indie is all about insecurity
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: thus the constant style-pillaging and hiding behind inch-thick layers of irony
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: metalheads know who they are and are cool with who they are
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: it’s largely class-based
StumpyPete1975: class as in social or economic?
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: both at once
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: metal is working-class white people music (though it’s also working-class LATINO music, something a lot of people don’t realize)
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: tons of latinos in bands - tom araya and dave lombardo, just to start
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: but it’s working class music
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: it’s about catharsis and power fantasies and obsession and violence
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: all stuff that limp-wristed college kids can’t relate to or cope with for the most part
StumpyPete1975: haha
StumpyPete1975: you are calling me OUT!
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: so when they dabble in metal it’s always with a wink to their buddies - “yeah, isn’t this stuff FUNNY? no, i don’t listen to it SERIOUSLY, i’m not some DIRTBAG”
StumpyPete1975: do you feel that way about the “Pitchfork Metal” like Mastodon, Torche, or Harvey Milk?
StumpyPete1975: like, Relapse Records is the approved token label? (and it’s a great label, btw)
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: the whole “hipster metal/pitchfork metal” thing is a weird area. harvey milk i admit i don’t get, though lots of my writers do. mastodon i like but haven’t loved since Leviathan - major label money has hurt them creatively i think.
StumpyPete1975: interesting
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: but a band like the Sword legitimately rocks. that’s a great metal record no matter where you buy your jeans.
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i think hydra head is actually the hipster label of choice - jesu, isis, etc.
StumpyPete1975: oh sure
StumpyPete1975: I forgot about them completely
StumpyPete1975: I’m an idiot!
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: torche is on hydra head.
StumpyPete1975: I’m an idiot
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: and don’t forget southern lord, a label that pretty much personifies joe carducci’s dictum that record collectors shouldn’t be in bands
StumpyPete1975: haha
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i love a lot of what southern lord puts out, but the purpose of a sunn O))) album for actual home listening utterly eludes me
StumpyPete1975: I feel like a lot of people transfer feelings about shows to metal records, maybe more than most genres
StumpyPete1975: that the two realms interoperate together better than with most…that they are essential together in understanding an artist
StumpyPete1975: most of my metal friends see shows as important as records
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: that may be true, i don’t know
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i am getting old and don’t go out as much as i used to
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: most of the shows i saw this past year were in arenas - judas priest/heaven and hell/motorhead, iron maiden, ac/dc
StumpyPete1975: ooh
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: but i know people who were out A LOT this year
StumpyPete1975: well, there is something of a circuit
StumpyPete1975: I’ve always been envious of it
StumpyPete1975: punk rock has it
StumpyPete1975: metal has it
StumpyPete1975: heck, Christian rock has it
StumpyPete1975: the word gets out and people come out to support it more it seems
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: that has its good and bad points
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: on the one hand, yeah, there’s always a lot of shows - and big ups to BB King’s in manhattan for booking tons of metal gigs the last few years, especially underground death metal tours
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: but on the other hand, the package tour thing gets monopolized by a few labels and a few promoters and acts get squeezed and mistreated - short set times, bad time slots, haphazard bills where the acts don’t mesh well stylistically
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: in some attempt to cover all the bases
StumpyPete1975: yeah, I love to play with metal bands but my band is so wimpy
StumpyPete1975: I keep trying to schedule shows with them but our audience hates it
StumpyPete1975: to be fair, the metal fans are much more accommodating
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: yeah, metal fans are generally friendly and non-threatening
StumpyPete1975: oh yeah
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: it’s our dark secret
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: again it’s all about being secure with yourself
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: if you’ve been sporting long hair and black t-shirts since junior high, by your mid-20s you have no one to impress anymore
StumpyPete1975: good point!
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: you just are who you are
StumpyPete1975: one problem I’ve had with some metal in the past is that it came off kind of same-y…almost boring…and this is music that should be violent and surprising in my mind
StumpyPete1975: it was aggressive, sure, but it followed a formula
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: that’s definitely true
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: but how far are guitars and drums gonna take you, no matter what you’re doing?
StumpyPete1975: I guess so
StumpyPete1975: I thought maybe electronics and stuff would have filtered in more
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: in a way, people have unrealistic expectations of metal because of the rhetoric, i think - when every album is described as “brutal,” “savage,” “devastating” etc., you come in expecting the apocalypse
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: and what you get is, in fact, a highly disciplined music based on instrumental technique and precision
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i mean, people looking at a picture of a death metal band would think these guys were cavemen
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: (and this is something i think “hipster metal” bands and fans, like Dead Child and Witch and a couple other acts, didn’t get), but in fact - playing metal is HARD
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: anybody can buy a guitar and an amp and sound like johnny ramone in two weeks
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: but you can’t sound like kerry king, or dave mustaine, or some of these younger technical death metal kids
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: those dudes have spent YEARS sitting in their bedrooms practicing scales and whatnot
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: it’s like looking at some free jazz guy blaring away and thinking he’s just honking out of nowhere but there’s years of study that goes into that “anarchic” sound
StumpyPete1975: oh yeah
StumpyPete1975: I say that to people all of the time
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: death metal is closer to classical music than rock
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: and in some cases, with the Scandinavian stuff, it really is!
StumpyPete1975: absolutely
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: james malone from arsis has composed string quartets
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: has written music for a ballet troupe
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: this actually goes to part of what i’m trying to do with the mag
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i’m trying to treat metal fans intelligently, and treat the music as worthy of thoughtful discussion
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: not beard-stroking stuff like The Wire but just, you know, these are serious musicians who are good at what they do and that’s worthy of respect
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: of course, i also try to commission and/or write stories that offer something the internet can’t - gotta keep print viable
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: so we tell STORIES, send the writer to do something with the band rather than just get quotes about the new album, the sessions, blah blah blah
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: something you can’t get from a myspace blog
StumpyPete1975: how is metal print faring?
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: doing okay
StumpyPete1975: yeah?
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: circ has gone up since i started
StumpyPete1975: cool
StumpyPete1975: here is something I’ve noticed
StumpyPete1975: Kerrang, Metal Edge, Rock Sound, Alt Press (sorta but you know), Decibel, Revolver
StumpyPete1975: there are more, of course
StumpyPete1975: Metalhammer?
StumpyPete1975: are they still around?
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: all still around but Kerrang isn’t a metal title anymore really, they’re closer to Alt Press territory
StumpyPete1975: aha
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: plus don’t forget Terrorizer
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: that’s the mag i actually read other than my own
StumpyPete1975: oh yeah!
StumpyPete1975: well, all of these are still around though and that’s a lot compared to the indie/rock world
StumpyPete1975: they are dropping like flies there and yet the metal-ish pubs seem to be doing okay
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: yeah, well, does the world really need harp AND paste AND magnet AND relix?
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: good question, but now there are hardly any of them left
StumpyPete1975: I actually like a preponderance of voices - I’m all free marketplace of ideas
StumpyPete1975: plus I like people having jobs!
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: if there were a preponderance of voices, that would be great, but the problem with indie music crit is that it’s a lot like washington dc political journalism - it’s a herd mentality
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: everybody decides together that arcade fire (or vampire weekend or fleet foxes) is The Thing, and runs after it like little kids at a soccer game
StumpyPete1975: you think it’s different with metal?
StumpyPete1975: (not an accusatory question, btw)
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: yeah, i do
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: Decibel covers different bands than Metal Edge does, Metal Edge is in competition with revolver for cover subjects (in a rs/spin sort of way)
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: terrorizer covers the same territory as decibel but from the uk
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: and metal maniacs is even more underground than decibel, like if a band sells too many copies they’re no longer eligible for coverage - they’re like the maximum rock ‘n’ roll of metal, sorta the border guards, keepin’ it pure
StumpyPete1975: do you think that metal fans prefer print?
StumpyPete1975: there IS something about zine culture and the like that appeals to that scene
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i think they still APPRECIATE print
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: metal fans are all over the web - look at blabbermouth.net, metalsucks.net, skullsnbones.com, other sites
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: but magazines hold an appeal because you can stack up back issues and re-read old interviews, etc.
StumpyPete1975: it’s that devotion again
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: and most mags do try to give readers something genuinely interesting and almost literary
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: the tradition of good music journalism is preserved in my mag (he said modestly)
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: we don’t publish many 5000-word think pieces or anything, but we provide unexpected angles as i said above
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: we do really think about the albums we review and how they fit not only within that band’s oeuvre (woo-hoo, fancy word!) but also within their genre and within metal as a whole
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: and also we attempt to preserve the idea of metal as a community
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i don’t think indie fans consider themselves a group the way metalheads do
StumpyPete1975: nope
StumpyPete1975: and if they did, I’d be suspicious!
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i know pop fans don’t - pop is just whatever’s selling really well at the moment
StumpyPete1975: and indie is kinda the same way
StumpyPete1975: it’s very ill-defined
StumpyPete1975: I want to ask you about advertising
StumpyPete1975: has it dried up for you like it has for other mags or does the fact that there is a very definable demographic help in garnering it?
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: helps a little, but it’s a tough sell, guaranteed
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: (and there’s a strong editorial/advertising wall, so i don’t monitor it too closely)
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: but it seems like labels aren’t advertising as much as in the past
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: partly because of a dearth of releases, partly because of tight budgets
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i heard about one of the biggest bands in metal - put out their fourth album last year - the ad budget was what it was for their debut, nine years ago
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: radical cutbacks on spending
StumpyPete1975: who was it, if you don’t mind me asking?
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: slipknot
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: budget went up and up for albums 2 and 3 then went back to nothing for the fourth one
StumpyPete1975: wow
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: so advertising in general is more lifestyle oriented - clothing lines, musical instrument companies, etc
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i don’t know much about marketing or advertising
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: so i don’t know whether ads in print mags for albums actually help or not
StumpyPete1975: yeah, I don’t know either
StumpyPete1975: but I think it is all presence
StumpyPete1975: you see a review
StumpyPete1975: see the ad
StumpyPete1975: see it online
StumpyPete1975: two or three things
StumpyPete1975: and you say okay gotta check this out
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: profile helps cement importance
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: everything about magazine publishing is such a blind gamble though
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i have no idea if putting a given artist on the cover is gonna sell more copies or not - except with a few guaranteed acts like metallica, slipknot, etc.
StumpyPete1975: do you see metal broadening its tent?
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: metal fans are welcoming
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: don’t be a dick, don’t come to a show sneering and throwing attitude around, and it’ll be cool, you’ll have fun
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: if you can’t have fun at an amon amarth show, whether you know the songs or not, there’s something wrong with you
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: from a commercial standpoint, though, i’m not sure
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: radio is still very metal resistant, as are non-genre publications, which really pisses me off
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i mean, pitchfork reviewed a fistful of metal releases throughout the year, some quite favorably, but when it came time to make up their top 50 list, not one metal title was on there
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: same with the onion av club list - not one metal title
StumpyPete1975: I think it’s the problem with consensus
StumpyPete1975: there is that one metal guy on staff
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: it bugs me because they’re not claiming to be parochial indie-only sites, they’re claiming to be covering the best of current music
StumpyPete1975: yep
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: and yet, when the year ends, their true colors are revealed
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i mean, i don’t have to pretend to like bon iver or whoeverthefuck, you know?
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: when i make a list of the best albums of the year, it’s gonna be the best METAL albums of the year, and everyone reading it knows that going in
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: but pitchfork wants to expand their stylistic purview - until they don’t
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: and it winds up being disrespectful
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: and an inaccurate portrayal of culture as it exists on the ground
StumpyPete1975: it ends up being tokenism, really
StumpyPete1975: like, phew, we covered a few metal records this year
StumpyPete1975: good job guys!
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i mean, i will guarantee you the records i cover outsell the records they cover, in the aggregate, by a significant margin
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: not that sales are everything, but they’re not nothing
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: and should be taken into account when weighing “cultural significance”
StumpyPete1975: yeah
StumpyPete1975: you want to weigh in on the big sellers
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: metal is culturally significant music - in the sense that it has an impact on the culture - and non-metal outlets should admit that in a non-tokenistic way
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: but they’re still barely coming to grips with hip-hop, so i’m not holding my breath or anything
StumpyPete1975: that’s true
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: maybe part of it (and i said this to ryan schreiber in a real-time conversation once) is that the indie kids all got pantsed by the metal kids in junior high and high school, and there’s vestigial resentment
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: so now that they’ve built their little clubhouse, they’re very careful about monitoring the door
StumpyPete1975: our metal kids got pantsed by other people
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i think it’s true of idolator, too, btw
StumpyPete1975: yeah?
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: idolator doesn’t cover metal very much at all
StumpyPete1975: hmm
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: and it should
StumpyPete1975: you’re right probably
StumpyPete1975: honestly, I just don’t know enough and I think that’s the problem with Idolator, the Fork, etc.
StumpyPete1975: it’s hard to do it when you don’t know much
StumpyPete1975: and your education is so far ahead of mine that I don’t want to come off like a dilettante
StumpyPete1975: sure, I have some records and stuff, but it’s all stuff friends have given me
StumpyPete1975: I ask them, what’s hot in metal? and they send me records
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: dilettante-ism is okay
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: it’s SMUG dilettante-ism that’s annoying
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: come in with an open mind and say “hey, i don’t know much but this seems cool to me” and some churls will jump on you but others will be super helpful and say “ok, then you should listen to this and this and this”
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: the problems arise when people come in and point and say “hey, look what the cavemen did in the corner!”
StumpyPete1975: maybe they should all get haircuts like Metallica! (kidding)
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: and i admit it goes both ways
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: when early man’s record came out a few years ago my first thought was “it’s on Matador - it’s gotta suck”
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: turned out it was really good, though
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: and now they’re on a “real metal label” (The End)
StumpyPete1975: and what about in terms of what kinds of bands count as metal? The fringe guys, maybe the math rockers, the Neurosis gothy stuff?
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i think metal is continually absorbing sounds from outside
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: everything is fodder for the Heavy
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: native instruments, drones, hip-hop beats, techno, whatever
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: a few bands try things, if they succeed others clone it and all of a sudden you’ve got a subgenre (”NeurIsis bands”)
StumpyPete1975: aha
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i don’t like some of the subgenres/styles (”prom dress metal” - gothicky stuff w/girl singers - does nothing for me, and i have had to admit that 90 percent of black metal leaves me utterly cold, no pun intended)
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i’m much more of a death metal guy
StumpyPete1975: black metal does tickle my silly bone sometimes
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: and i like big choruses and guitar solos - i came to metal through judas priest when i was 11, and that’s still what i like
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i like Manowar for hell’s sake
StumpyPete1975: oh I love them so much
StumpyPete1975: they are kind of hilarious and amazing in their devotion to metal for metal’s sake
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: sure, they’re cartoonish, but there are some damn good songs on their albums, and they can really play the fuck out of their instruments
StumpyPete1975: it’s so over-the-top and wonderful
StumpyPete1975: agreed
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: we’ve [covered the band], not because they had a new album out or were doing anything big in the u.s. (they primarily tour europe nowadays) but just because
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: that’s my editorial approach in a nutshell - if you’re worthy of respect, you’re worthy of coverage, whether you’ve got a new album out or not
they’re worthy of respect
StumpyPete1975: do you like King Diamond?
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i like some Mercyful Fate stuff but never got into KD as a solo artist
StumpyPete1975: I never heard that Mercyful Fate stuff
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: too Euro for me, not visceral enough
StumpyPete1975: oh yeah
StumpyPete1975: it’s very Euro
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i like grab-you-by-the-nuts metal
Are you a grizzled music industry veteran that wants to go anonIMous with us? Email us at tipsATidolatorDOTcom.
“yes, i really liked Chinese Democracy, a lot”
“metal fans are fiercely devoted - they’re lifers”
I think these two quotes may be related.
If I hadn’t had so many dealings with metal dudes, and for a while been one, I could have thought you made this interview up. He hit all the talking points.
Special thanks for bringing up your love for the ridiculous in metal. He really should have called you on that.
am i the only one so far to catch the soundgarden reference… and be just a little confused by it?
great convo though. and dude is dead on, whoever he is (too lazy/busy to play detective). i feel guilty for only doing a top 10 on antiquiet, because if we did a top 20 there would have definitely been some metal on there.
great perspective all around, on both metal and journalism. my favorite quote bit was this bit-
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: dilettante-ism is okay
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: it’s SMUG dilettante-ism that’s annoying
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: come in with an open mind and say “hey, i don’t know much but this seems cool to me” and some churls will jump on you but others will be super helpful and say “ok, then you should listen to this and this and this”
awesome interview here.
@musicquizking: In their defense, the actual metal writers at Pitchfork are pretty pro-metal and don’t approach it with irony, in my opinion.
@Lucas Jensen: Great job, Lucas. This one might be my favorite so far.
I love good metal, but I can’t ever read the P’fork column on the genre. I think they DO probably know their stuff, but the bands they cover sometimes, to me, are just this weird ass metal stuff. Obviously, it’s because their audience is mostly “limp-wristed college kids” so they are going for more of the artsy obscure “metal” acts, instead of saying “Hey, this new Judas Priest record is what you need to hear. It’s not reinventing the wheel but it’s metal and rocks hard so shut up.”
@Lucas Jensen: Oh, and did I read that correctly? You haven’t heard Mercyful Fate? Man, you need to hear Melissa.
@musicquizking: I have to say, as a (hopefully) non-ironic fan of Hammerfall, it’s hard to take such a band too seriously when they have a song called “Hammerfall”, and a song called “Let The Hammer Fall.”
Great interview, and the first one I’ve read all the way through in a long time. And I HATE metal. The closest I’ve ever gotten to metal is some of the mid 90’s hardcore (Strife, Snapcase, Sick of It All) and a passing enjoyment of Iron Maiden and Motorhead.
This is a good interview, but I can’t get away from feeling like “Oh, boo hoo, metal guy.” Seriously, metal people don’t get enough? Let’s be real.
Also, fuck this guy’s little homophobic comments on “indie rock.”
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i don’t think indie fans consider themselves a group the way metalheads do
StumpyPete1975: nope
StumpyPete1975: and if they did, I’d be suspicious!
TheThingThatShouldNotBe: i know pop fans don’t - pop is just whatever’s selling really well at the moment
Um, okay.
Sure, Pitchfork is guilty of tokenism at times, but I don’t think that admiring albums (i.e. including them on lists) that cross over into limpwristville is BS. I think it’s far more boring to subject myself to only one type of music. Also, while their editorial mission isn’t explicit, it’s pretty obvious that they have an affinity for the indie.
Also, musicianship is great and all, but interesting and innovative songwriting is far more important. Sorry, Steve Vai will always make me want to stick my head in a meat grinder.
@Matthew Perpetua: Hey, he said it. I didn’t. Is limp-wristed automatically homophobic? I’m not so sure, but I’m naive. I certainly didn’t think of it that way over the course of the conversation.
@Cos: Wow, that boring, huh? ;) I’ll try better.
@Matthew Perpetua:
Agreed. Can you IMAGINE the outrage we’d be seeing if some bearded, indie-loving dude had called all metal fans heshers or dirtbags or something?
I feel like this entire interview illustrates an idea I find really troubling: that if you simply choose a niche, you’re off the hook for all sorts of things other people are constantly taken to task for. Obviously, you get to say homophobic shit about other genres to interviewers, which is super awesome, but you’re also rewarded for your own insularity (as a critic, an artist, or even a fan).This has been covered here and everywhere else many times before, but it really makes me wonder why so much more is expected of the “indie” crowd in terms of leaving their comfort zone.
HAHAHA, artistic change = insecurity. Not to get all Sharks v Jets, but every single line about indie here reeks of an inferiority complex.
Let me know when you’re done beating your strawman with its own arm, guy. I’m going to go buy some jeans.
@Matthew Perpetua: I’m rolling my eyes over here, seriously. Dude, calling out beta males does not equal homophobia. I know the guys he’s talking about, and I know they’re pretty much all straight.
A few things:
1) Thanks TheThingThatShouldNotBe for reminding people that metal is a working class Latino genre too. I really don’t think a lot of upper-middle class white people in the Northeast (or anywhere outside the Southwest, for that matter) understand that at all. And thanks for pointing out that it’s lovely, precise music, too — I feel like this is always lost in the ironic indie appreciation of metal. Loving metal is like being a Bach fiend.
2) SERIOUSLY YOU GUYS, THE SWORD IS AWESOME.
3) Finally, I guess if I want to meet more metal dudes, I need to go to metal shows, huh?
@the rich girls are weeping: 1)I think you mean omega males. If I understand correctly, the beta males would be the guys pantsing the omega males while the alpha males are busy trying to take away their music. Not that anybody actually gets pantsed.
But, more importantly, there is a huge differance between appreciating the irony in music and ironically appreciating music. Largely in that nobody actually does the later.
@the rich girls are weeping: Well put.
@K-Rex: I pantsed a few people in my day. I also pantsed my best friends dad about a year ago. We’re still laughing about that one. Just thought I’d share my pantsing stories.
@K-Rex: Ooh, good point. Omega males it is. I’m afraid my knowledge of the proper terminology to describe patriarchal hegemony is sketchy at best. Should have checked Wikipedia first, obvs!
@the rich girls are weeping: Here. Here.
“Also, musicianship is great and all, but interesting and innovative songwriting is far more important.” Can you get the second without the first? Theoretically, but a lot of times its the same thing over and over gussied up in different ways that are neither innovative nor interesting.
@Mike Conklin: “This has been covered here and everywhere else many times before, but it really makes me wonder why so much more is expected of the “indie” crowd in terms of leaving their comfort zone.”
I agree with this part wholeheartedly, and I still stand by my thoughts that “indie” is very broad right now from a sonic perspective. But I will say that a lot is expected of indie because fans often present themselves as more open-minded than other groups and tend to have very liberal politics, have degrees, etc. etc.
@janine: I’d argue that very few bands succeed without some nominal level of instrumental competence. There is nothing wrong with getting better at one’s instrument, I say.
@MayhemintheHood: You know, I may have. I have this King Diamond compilation that must include some Mercyful Fate on it because that song is on there. Did he redo it?
@Lucas Jensen: Yeah, I was arguing against the other thing… that is to say, i agree.
@janine: And I was agreeing. Eff you!
@janine: Sure, a musician needs to know their an instrument to write a decent song, but I don’t think greater technical ability = better songwriting, which seems to be the case with most metal fans.
As long as the subject has turned to technique, I just wanna throw in my current favorite YouTube video:
I could watch this guy all day.
Whoops, here’s the link:
@the rich girls are weeping: Thanks TheThingThatShouldNotBe for reminding people that metal is a working class Latino genre too. I really don’t think a lot of upper-middle class white people in the Northeast (or anywhere outside the Southwest, for that matter) understand that at all.
Even in in the Southwest it’s missed far too often. And it is very, very true. I’d say that the Iron Maiden/Motorhead/Dio show I saw a few years back had a crowd that was around a third to a half Latino.
Isn’t a third to a half of the general population of the Southwest Latino?
This is kinda the point, see.
@Lucas Jensen: “I agree with this part wholeheartedly, and I still stand by my thoughts that “indie” is very broad right now from a sonic perspective. But I will say that a lot is expected of indie because fans often present themselves as more open-minded than other groups and tend to have very liberal politics, have degrees, etc. etc.”
Yeah, I think you’re right. Something about that just seems a little bit dangerous to me, though. Eventually that line of thinking boils down to “Aw, of course we can’t expect metal fans to challenge themselves. They’re not smart enough! And anyway, they’re proud of it!”
I guess I just find it somewhat upsetting that “indie rock” (a term I use to include its artists, critics and fans) has become something of a punching bag for failing to live up to the high standards it’s set for itself, while it’s ok for everyone else to just set really, really, awesomely low standards. I understand it, obviously, and I think it’s good for people to be policed and held accountable when they don’t do what they said they would. It would be nice, though, if someone had the guts to suggest, without fear of being called an elitist, that it would be good all people to challenge themselves a bit more.
@Ned Raggett: Word.
@Mike Conklin: It would be nice, though, if someone had the guts to suggest, without fear of being called an elitist, that it would be good all people to challenge themselves a bit more.
Seriously.
I seem to recall there was a time when metalers considered themselves to be ground breaking pioneers as well as keepers of some sacred flame. Is metal the new rock-a-billy now? Put on a costume, thrash through some genre exercises, and tell the crown how authentic they are?
I say:yes. Almost.
@Mike Conklin: No, sorry, I was speaking more about the perception of indie fans, not actual indie fans themselves. I said it was how they present themselves. I agree with your statement on indie rock, too. It’s become this punching bag (it’s the new “boomers”) when I find it remarkably broad.
@Lucas Jensen: But I bet a lot of people feel that way about their preferred genre, perhaps.
I think people assume too much when they say that metal is static and its fans unchallenged. Familiarity with a genre helps you to hear it better and detect differences. on the flipside, a lack of familiarity makes it all sound the same. For example, there’s a certain plangent guitar sound associated with 90s indie rock which makes me tune out completely. I’m fearsome in a game of pop culture trivial pursuit, but most GBV songs, for example, sound exactly the same to me. That’s not universally true, that’s my ear and GBV.
Not to be a dick (and it’s not as if I’m this huge metal head) charges that metal is samey are insane and evidence of an ear that can’t hear the differences. There’s no crime in that, our ears carry our history with music family, friends, that year you decided to lose weight and secretly became a Crystal Waters fan… but when you don’t acknowledge that fact, it’s super lame.
I’ll tell you what, metal could have never produced the Vivian Girls.
“I understand it, obviously, and I think it’s good for people to be policed and held accountable when they don’t do what they said they would.” –Another reason to shun indie rock.
Well, this edition introduced me to Arsis, which based on the samples I’m hearing is right up my alley. So, thanks anonodude for that!
@Mike Conklin:
“TheThingThatShouldNotBe: if you’ve been sporting long hair and black t-shirts since junior high, by your mid-20s you have no one to impress anymore”
This is definitely my favorite quote of the whole piece. Ridiculously true. Even though I’m long out of junior high and work in the finance industry, at the end of the day, my uniform of choice isn’t exactly clothes people would wear to church. Accordingly, I don’t think “dirtbag” is quite the word you want to use when insulting a metalhead. I mean, as the man said, I don’t think I’m allowed to get too mad when someone calls me a hesher for wearing a t-shirt with skulls on it and having a beard/long hair. Buy the ticket, take the ride and all that…
I too really resent it when the “Pitchfork types” rave about certain metal bands because it always seems like there’s a hint of irony to their adoration.
And I don’t get Harvey Milk either.
Great interview. The “one person’s rut is another person’s defined style” line is my favorite music-related quote of this barely-begun year.
I think the guys emphasis of the technical element of metal is only really characteristic of the death/power/thrash side of things, and he states himself he doesn’t listen to much black metal, which tends to be more deliberately primitive. Of course that’s a huge generalisation and many of the early death metal bands (Immolation, Asphyx, etc) were more focused on songwriting and atmosphere than technical proficiency. Likewise there are a lot of experimental bands that are a million miles from the Mastodon/Meshuggah molds, like the Ruins of Beverest or Ihsahn.
But it highlights what I think is the main reason for tokenism among indie mags, which is that metal’s extreme subdivision is alien to reviewers used to indie’s more amorphous classifications. So they don’t put the albums in their necessary context.
To expand on what janine said, most of the harsher genres of metal have their own distinct sort of, well unpleasantness to be honest: muddy production or squeeled vocals or trebly guitars. That stuff is an aquired taste which dominates your impression of the music if you aren’t used to it (making it sound samey) and it isn’t fully compatible between subgenres. I find most death metal unpleasant and samey, and hardcore actually uncomfortable, but black metal is perfectly listenable. And I haven’t seen many Pitchfork reviews that take that sort of thing into account.
This was a kick ass interview. I was a metalhead all through jr high and high school and I still appreciate a lot of 80’s metal (pre-hair band crap, which is largely what made me lose all interest in metal). But the lack of mainstream respect for metal is not a new thing. And every point he made about the general culture of metal fans was true 20 years ago as well. Fiercely loyal, not interested in their favorite bands making wild stylistic changes but open to absorbing influences from all genres, and metal was HUGE in the latino community. Some of my latino friends called themselves “Hispandex”