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	<title>Comments on: Lost In Translation: The Problems With The &#8220;Pirates Buy More Music&#8221; Study</title>
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		<title>By: djid</title>
		<link>http://idolator.com/5218721/lost-in-translation-the-problems-with-the-pirates-buy-more-music-study/comment-page-1#comment-919981</link>
		<dc:creator>djid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:08:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://idolator.com/?p=5218721#comment-919981</guid>
		<description>@thierry - 

i think you should also note that for home taping, someone had to have an original!  i remember that if I wanted an album, I&#039;d ask around the 4 or 5 people at school who liked that kind of music, and if no-one had it, then at least one of us was going to have to go and buy it!  Which obviously we don&#039;t have now - hop on soulseek and get it off some dude in Peru or wherever....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@thierry &#8211; </p>
<p>i think you should also note that for home taping, someone had to have an original!  i remember that if I wanted an album, I&#8217;d ask around the 4 or 5 people at school who liked that kind of music, and if no-one had it, then at least one of us was going to have to go and buy it!  Which obviously we don&#8217;t have now &#8211; hop on soulseek and get it off some dude in Peru or wherever&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: brakmaster</title>
		<link>http://idolator.com/5218721/lost-in-translation-the-problems-with-the-pirates-buy-more-music-study/comment-page-1#comment-919721</link>
		<dc:creator>brakmaster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 00:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://idolator.com/?p=5218721#comment-919721</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-918641&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;scottpl&lt;/a&gt; &quot;Over the course of the past decade, a lot of people just stopped giving a shit about music altogether.&quot;

I think this is the heart of the matter.  Music is losing its relevancy as a form of identification for the Web 2.0 generation.  Kids used to be defined by the band logo on their shirts/cars.  Now kids are defined by their social network more than anything else.

@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-918641&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Maura&lt;/a&gt;
Thanks for expanding on your thoughts.  I would be interested to see a comparison of paid v. unpaid music collections - however those metrics are only one part of this issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-918641" rel="nofollow">scottpl</a> &#8220;Over the course of the past decade, a lot of people just stopped giving a shit about music altogether.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think this is the heart of the matter.  Music is losing its relevancy as a form of identification for the Web 2.0 generation.  Kids used to be defined by the band logo on their shirts/cars.  Now kids are defined by their social network more than anything else.</p>
<p>@<a href="#comment-918641" rel="nofollow">Maura</a><br />
Thanks for expanding on your thoughts.  I would be interested to see a comparison of paid v. unpaid music collections &#8211; however those metrics are only one part of this issue.</p>
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		<title>By: pantsonfireliarliar</title>
		<link>http://idolator.com/5218721/lost-in-translation-the-problems-with-the-pirates-buy-more-music-study/comment-page-1#comment-918831</link>
		<dc:creator>pantsonfireliarliar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:35:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://idolator.com/?p=5218721#comment-918831</guid>
		<description>Sorry that second quote should be attributed as @&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-918531&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Thierry&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry that second quote should be attributed as @<a href="#comment-918531" rel="nofollow">Thierry</a></p>
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		<title>By: pantsonfireliarliar</title>
		<link>http://idolator.com/5218721/lost-in-translation-the-problems-with-the-pirates-buy-more-music-study/comment-page-1#comment-918821</link>
		<dc:creator>pantsonfireliarliar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:33:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://idolator.com/?p=5218721#comment-918821</guid>
		<description>I wouldn&#039;t go so far as to say people stopped giving a shit about music. Rather, you also need to consider packaging as well. iTunes and digital sales brought a shift from selling the album to selling the single. If a good portion of people went from buying the album to buying the single, this alone could account for a significant revenue loss as sales went from $15/album to $1-$2 per single. 

@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-918521&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;KingofPants&lt;/a&gt; &quot;Well, it’s just kinda weird to try and compare home taping to mass file sharing, both for reasons of scope and the fact that home taping didn’t produce an exact reproduction in digital-level quality.&quot;

Reproduction quality is irrelevant if it&#039;s still good enough to keep someone from buying the album. I think we could all agree that the lowest common denominator for acceptable music quality is pretty low, otherwise 4th gen tapes or 128bit mp3s would never have been used.

&quot;My bigger problem with the comparison is that I don’t remember feeling so self-righteous about taping an album, and I don’t think anyone passing around their 4th generation tape of Appetite for Destruction thought of themselves as a rights advocate or a ‘freedom fighter’.&quot;

And back then the RIAA hadn&#039;t gone through several years of a fear campaign of directly suing individuals for tens (hundreds?) of thousands dollars. Reality has changed, music publishers are much more adversarial these days, which would IMHO cause an equal but opposite reaction from the other side.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t go so far as to say people stopped giving a shit about music. Rather, you also need to consider packaging as well. iTunes and digital sales brought a shift from selling the album to selling the single. If a good portion of people went from buying the album to buying the single, this alone could account for a significant revenue loss as sales went from $15/album to $1-$2 per single. </p>
<p>@<a href="#comment-918521" rel="nofollow">KingofPants</a> &#8220;Well, it’s just kinda weird to try and compare home taping to mass file sharing, both for reasons of scope and the fact that home taping didn’t produce an exact reproduction in digital-level quality.&#8221;</p>
<p>Reproduction quality is irrelevant if it&#8217;s still good enough to keep someone from buying the album. I think we could all agree that the lowest common denominator for acceptable music quality is pretty low, otherwise 4th gen tapes or 128bit mp3s would never have been used.</p>
<p>&#8220;My bigger problem with the comparison is that I don’t remember feeling so self-righteous about taping an album, and I don’t think anyone passing around their 4th generation tape of Appetite for Destruction thought of themselves as a rights advocate or a ‘freedom fighter’.&#8221;</p>
<p>And back then the RIAA hadn&#8217;t gone through several years of a fear campaign of directly suing individuals for tens (hundreds?) of thousands dollars. Reality has changed, music publishers are much more adversarial these days, which would IMHO cause an equal but opposite reaction from the other side.</p>
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		<title>By: scottpl</title>
		<link>http://idolator.com/5218721/lost-in-translation-the-problems-with-the-pirates-buy-more-music-study/comment-page-1#comment-918691</link>
		<dc:creator>scottpl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:16:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://idolator.com/?p=5218721#comment-918691</guid>
		<description>oops,  &quot;non-downloaders&#039; purchase numbers&quot; not &quot;non-downloaded&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oops,  &#8220;non-downloaders&#8217; purchase numbers&#8221; not &#8220;non-downloaded&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: scottpl</title>
		<link>http://idolator.com/5218721/lost-in-translation-the-problems-with-the-pirates-buy-more-music-study/comment-page-1#comment-918641</link>
		<dc:creator>scottpl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://idolator.com/?p=5218721#comment-918641</guid>
		<description>Lucas otm. Besides an overall lack of causality and no indications wrt the volume of music downloaded vs. purchased and how that has changed over the years, the other thing that jumped out at me about this survey when I saw it the other day is: How have the buying habits of non-downloaders changed? It&#039;s all well and good to say downloaders are 10x more likely to buy than non-downloaders or whatever the results were, but record sales and other Lucas Jensen-style empirical evidence* would strongly suggest that the non-downloaded purchase numbers have fallen through the basement this decade, which would of course impact on any conclusions drawn from numbers suggesting that one group is x times more likely to buy than another. The most striking thing to me about this isn&#039;t: Downloading possibly leads to sales. But: Over the course of the past decade, a lot of people just stopped giving a shit about music altogether. Yet the survey, its results (from what I&#039;ve seen) and the discussions of it don&#039;t seem to consider this at all. 

*dwindling shelf space given to music at big boxes, the number of indie or chain record stores closing, the relative amount and variety of music on U.S. TV/MTV/radio vs a decade or two ago (and I think this is, again through personal experience, not as bad off in western europe, where they seem more engaged culturally with pop music than Americans do), plus the factual and quite striking shrinking record sales blah blah blah strongly suggest that non-downloaders are buying-- even being exposed to-- much less music now than they once were, and I would gather piracy and its impact on the overall health of the music industry can be attributed to that in some ways. People who don&#039;t file trade simply don&#039;t have anywhere close to the same access to music they once did. And, alas, don&#039;t even seem to be making much of a fuss about that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lucas otm. Besides an overall lack of causality and no indications wrt the volume of music downloaded vs. purchased and how that has changed over the years, the other thing that jumped out at me about this survey when I saw it the other day is: How have the buying habits of non-downloaders changed? It&#8217;s all well and good to say downloaders are 10x more likely to buy than non-downloaders or whatever the results were, but record sales and other Lucas Jensen-style empirical evidence* would strongly suggest that the non-downloaded purchase numbers have fallen through the basement this decade, which would of course impact on any conclusions drawn from numbers suggesting that one group is x times more likely to buy than another. The most striking thing to me about this isn&#8217;t: Downloading possibly leads to sales. But: Over the course of the past decade, a lot of people just stopped giving a shit about music altogether. Yet the survey, its results (from what I&#8217;ve seen) and the discussions of it don&#8217;t seem to consider this at all. </p>
<p>*dwindling shelf space given to music at big boxes, the number of indie or chain record stores closing, the relative amount and variety of music on U.S. TV/MTV/radio vs a decade or two ago (and I think this is, again through personal experience, not as bad off in western europe, where they seem more engaged culturally with pop music than Americans do), plus the factual and quite striking shrinking record sales blah blah blah strongly suggest that non-downloaders are buying&#8211; even being exposed to&#8211; much less music now than they once were, and I would gather piracy and its impact on the overall health of the music industry can be attributed to that in some ways. People who don&#8217;t file trade simply don&#8217;t have anywhere close to the same access to music they once did. And, alas, don&#8217;t even seem to be making much of a fuss about that.</p>
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		<title>By: KingofPants</title>
		<link>http://idolator.com/5218721/lost-in-translation-the-problems-with-the-pirates-buy-more-music-study/comment-page-1#comment-918541</link>
		<dc:creator>KingofPants</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:07:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://idolator.com/?p=5218721#comment-918541</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-918531&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Thierry&lt;/a&gt;: QFT.  See, for me, iTunes really is a rational alternative, but even when I was downloading illegally a lot more than I do now, I never tried to convince myself I was somehow sticking it to the Man.  And this is why, ever since the invention of Napster, I&#039;ve never been able to comprehend that line of thought, because it seem really simple, and it always has:

Getting something for free will always beat paying for it.

So you know that boomer canard about Gen X, that they didn&#039;t have a Vietnam to rebel against?  (Anyone else remember the really tepid anti-war movement about Gulf War I?)  Ok, so if that&#039;s true, then think about the generation after.  If they&#039;re sitting there in a suburban bedroom with a fat pipe and BitTorrent...I mean, it&#039;s all Hot Topic-y angst, really.  It&#039;s what the Internet enables: the motions of actual action (like, say, rebellion) without having to lift your ass from the computer desk.

What really pisses me off are the Ars Technica/Wired/BoingBoing cheerleaders, because they are, without a doubt, the most boring fucking people on the planet.  And yet they have somehow positioned themselves as (well-compensated) cheerleaders for some sort of &quot;revolutionary&quot; stance.  &#039;Course, the checks stop rolling in if you make the dilemma as essential as &quot;people like free shit&quot;, so they have to tart it up because it obviously can&#039;t be that simple.  It&#039;s precisely like the pro-marijuana argument.  &quot;People want to get high.&quot;  Simple, no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-918531" rel="nofollow">Thierry</a>: QFT.  See, for me, iTunes really is a rational alternative, but even when I was downloading illegally a lot more than I do now, I never tried to convince myself I was somehow sticking it to the Man.  And this is why, ever since the invention of Napster, I&#8217;ve never been able to comprehend that line of thought, because it seem really simple, and it always has:</p>
<p>Getting something for free will always beat paying for it.</p>
<p>So you know that boomer canard about Gen X, that they didn&#8217;t have a Vietnam to rebel against?  (Anyone else remember the really tepid anti-war movement about Gulf War I?)  Ok, so if that&#8217;s true, then think about the generation after.  If they&#8217;re sitting there in a suburban bedroom with a fat pipe and BitTorrent&#8230;I mean, it&#8217;s all Hot Topic-y angst, really.  It&#8217;s what the Internet enables: the motions of actual action (like, say, rebellion) without having to lift your ass from the computer desk.</p>
<p>What really pisses me off are the Ars Technica/Wired/BoingBoing cheerleaders, because they are, without a doubt, the most boring fucking people on the planet.  And yet they have somehow positioned themselves as (well-compensated) cheerleaders for some sort of &#8220;revolutionary&#8221; stance.  &#8216;Course, the checks stop rolling in if you make the dilemma as essential as &#8220;people like free shit&#8221;, so they have to tart it up because it obviously can&#8217;t be that simple.  It&#8217;s precisely like the pro-marijuana argument.  &#8220;People want to get high.&#8221;  Simple, no?</p>
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		<title>By: Thierry</title>
		<link>http://idolator.com/5218721/lost-in-translation-the-problems-with-the-pirates-buy-more-music-study/comment-page-1#comment-918531</link>
		<dc:creator>Thierry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://idolator.com/?p=5218721#comment-918531</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-918521&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;KingofPants&lt;/a&gt;My bigger problem with the comparison is that I don&#039;t remember feeling so self-righteous about taping an album, and I don&#039;t think anyone passing around their 4th generation tape of &lt;i&gt;Appetite for Destruction&lt;/i&gt; thought of themselves as a rights advocate or a &#039;freedom fighter&#039;.  Also, I fully expected to buy that taped album once I could afford it, whereas a lot of downloaders don&#039;t think that acquiting music involves some sort of consumer choice, of tradeoff. I think that this is something that iTunes, as successful as it has been, has not done successfully - make paying for music a rational decision for people who do not personally know struggling musicians hoping to survive on their art - and a large part of this is that there is absolutely nothing tangible to be gained for the listener in downloading from iTunes instead of from Rapidshare or Megaupload. In fact you are probably getting your file at a worse sampling rate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-918521" rel="nofollow">KingofPants</a>My bigger problem with the comparison is that I don&#8217;t remember feeling so self-righteous about taping an album, and I don&#8217;t think anyone passing around their 4th generation tape of <i>Appetite for Destruction</i> thought of themselves as a rights advocate or a &#8216;freedom fighter&#8217;.  Also, I fully expected to buy that taped album once I could afford it, whereas a lot of downloaders don&#8217;t think that acquiting music involves some sort of consumer choice, of tradeoff. I think that this is something that iTunes, as successful as it has been, has not done successfully &#8211; make paying for music a rational decision for people who do not personally know struggling musicians hoping to survive on their art &#8211; and a large part of this is that there is absolutely nothing tangible to be gained for the listener in downloading from iTunes instead of from Rapidshare or Megaupload. In fact you are probably getting your file at a worse sampling rate.</p>
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		<title>By: KingofPants</title>
		<link>http://idolator.com/5218721/lost-in-translation-the-problems-with-the-pirates-buy-more-music-study/comment-page-1#comment-918521</link>
		<dc:creator>KingofPants</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:43:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://idolator.com/?p=5218721#comment-918521</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-918511&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;KikoJones&lt;/a&gt;: Well, it&#039;s just kinda weird to try and compare home taping to mass file sharing, both for reasons of scope and the fact that home taping didn&#039;t produce an exact reproduction in digital-level quality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-918511" rel="nofollow">KikoJones</a>: Well, it&#8217;s just kinda weird to try and compare home taping to mass file sharing, both for reasons of scope and the fact that home taping didn&#8217;t produce an exact reproduction in digital-level quality.</p>
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		<title>By: KikoJones</title>
		<link>http://idolator.com/5218721/lost-in-translation-the-problems-with-the-pirates-buy-more-music-study/comment-page-1#comment-918511</link>
		<dc:creator>KikoJones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-918501&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Lucas Jensen&lt;/a&gt; It&#039;s also ludicrous to compare the home taping habits of music fans of, say, 15 yrs ago with a new crop that feels the music of &quot;greedy rock stars&quot; should be free, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="#comment-918501" rel="nofollow">Lucas Jensen</a> It&#8217;s also ludicrous to compare the home taping habits of music fans of, say, 15 yrs ago with a new crop that feels the music of &#8220;greedy rock stars&#8221; should be free, anyway.</p>
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