Idolator

the fact is there are just a lot more things for people to invest their time in these days

I can't thank you enough for saying this -- this has been a not-so-secret mental hobbyhorse of mine for some time, and I think helps illustrate exactly *why* 'mass culture' as such is so fragmented and ultimately lowest common denominator.

Here's another question. If I've say bought a cd 7 seven times in my life and have managed to lose it or give it away to a friend, why do I have to keep buying it over and over? Half the time I'm on the internet trying to find an mp3 of a song on a cd that I have bought at one time or another. I don't feel like I'm "stealing" music because I've paid for it before, likely more than once. So, am I a horrible stealer of music? I already gave you my money at least once. Also, say it's a cd that has gone out of print never to be re-issued available no other way but finding it in some remote corner of the internet. Does this mean the artist or the music publisher is not interested in making money off of it anymore?

You should really just learn to hold on to your stuff, man.

I'm sorry I'm all over this, but I'm the only person under 30 who has never stolen music (hi). So this is the one time where I can talk about it without being besides-the-point-lady.

The users of OiNK weren't merely "the kids." These were by their own definition a self-selected highly erudite group. Their passion/appetite for music was huge, which is what made them join in the first place. If these guys don't think that music is worth their time or money, then who will? Forget about the record companies, what happens to music itself when it has no worth? That worries me as a listener.

I'm not worried about Lars Ulrich's ugly art fund or the record industry getting more dough to pour into Chinese Democracy. I just think that societies get the art it asks for and, not to sound like a boomer, I don't want disposable. If the most hard-core of my fellow listeners place price and convenience first, will I end up with music McNuggets?

Have I purchased duds? Sure. I still have a gatefold vinyl, mint-condition copy of Chutes Too Narrow for anyone that wants it, free. (that's fair use)

@dirty_snowflake: There's a completely meaningless point. Yes, it's fine to download a song you've already paid for (I've done that myself for stuff I've bought on vinyl), or if the album's out of print, or if it's a bootleg or an import or otherwise of limited availability, but do you really think those cases make up the majority of torrent traffic? Or that file-sharing sites should be tolerated by the music industry strictly for those purposes? In other words, yes, you're right; so what?

while I certainly agree that 1000 downloads does not mean 1000 lost sales, the oppoosite point (ehich it appears this post is trying to make) that 1000 downloads equals zero lost sales is equally indefensible. Obviously not everyone who downloads a record would have otherwise bought it, but certainly SOME of them would have, right?

I also have a tough time buying the argument that Oink users are so up in arms because, after all, "they just want more people to hear the music." Well if more ears is really what you're after, why hide in such an exclusionary little club?

Finally, the argument I find most frustrating (although not put forth here), is that musicians should be recording music for the love of the art, and not motivated by money. That's absurd. Most of them ARE recording for the love of the artform, but they're also trying to make it their career. You wouldn't ask your accountant to do your taxes for the love of the math, would you?

@Big Money, No Whammies: "You wouldn't ask your accountant to do your taxes for the love of the math, would you?" LOLZ.

Or even more pertinently - "Mr OiNK user, you don't expect your boss to ask you to do your job without pay, do you?"

My last comment on this issue - I promise - if OiNKers are so up-in-arms about the catalogue side of OiNK, why doesn't someone set up a version of OiNK that is only back catalogue? No pre-release leaks and no music, say, unless it was released over a year before (or is not getting domestic distribution). Then, when you defend that site's existence, it will seem that much more morally defensible. I'm sure the pre-release leaks are the labels hugest concern, and their main reason for jumping on OiNK.

@The Mozfather: You think the record industry will give up their chance to flog the back catalogs of artists they've long ceased caring about?

"most of those kids are not suddenly going to go out and drop $15 for that new John Vanderslice CD"

Exactly. Most of them won't. But some of them will.

OiNK apologizers creep the f*ck out of me.

@The Mozfather: I'm not sure if you were serious or not, but that is a fantastic idea. Hear hear! It sounds like something that might even, one day, come from the record companies themselves.

I think that the outrage of the record industry is directed mainly toward the leaking of pre-release materials on Oink. It seems to me that most of these "leaks" had to come from employees of the record industry, these things just don't appear on Oink out of nowhere- not everyone has access to pre-releases. Maybe there should be an internal investigation into who the "leakers" are. Most of the people downloading these pre-releases probably don't give a shit WHEN they get it, if it's up there, they'll download it- if not then they'll wait. It's obviously stupid to defend illegal downloading, but to me the outrage seems to be heightened due to the "invite only" nature of Oink. It can't have been that exclusive, I know 5 people who used it...and I only know 5 people! If Oink was a more widely used site, then it wouldn't seem so scary and evil. Ignorance breeds fear, and there's definitely been some fear-mongering in the media coverage of this shut-down.

the majority of oink users were people who were strongly opposed to the idea of not paying for music. is it a good idea to brand your best customers as criminals? i will try to buy music directly from the artist if possible from now on. oink r.i.p.

@fortycoats: "the majority of oink users were people who were strongly opposed to the idea of not paying for music."

Uh...wtf? Is it even worth explaining why that makes no sense? And you generally can't buy music from artists themselves, because of distribution contracts.

As well stated by, janine, the reason OiNK did so well is because the community were true believers in the creativity and artistic qualities developed through a music medium. OiNK quickly entrenched me in the music scene for the second time in my life. What OiNK brought to its users is almost hard to explain, however, I can tell you that it HELPED the artists in many ways. Its true i did not go and buy many of the albums that i downloaded, yet i DID buy some of them. The ones that i bought were from obscure artists that i know will never appear in stores especially places like a Virgin Megastore.

Besides the CD's that i bought i started to go to tons of shows. Nearly ever other week i went to go see a band that i discovered a la OiNK.

OiNK was a breeding ground for music aficionado's and thats a good thing! Not only did i spend money on bands that deserve it but i was able to share with others, unknown & local bands that are totally unique. The artists are benefiting from sites like OiNK, the only one being hurt is the RIAA and MPAA which just want to expand their coffers.

How will i know what artists i should spend my money on now?

@Black_Umbrella: Try reading?

Major-label music has been sucking for a while now. If it weren't for the original Napster, I would still be listening to whatever the big labels told me I should listen to.

The music industry's woes are not caused by file sharing. They are caused by the crap that passes for music lately. They are caused by the way that the music industry has historically treated musicians, giving them only a few cents from each record sold. And finally, it is caused by apathetic listeners.

If anybody here is really worried about the "industry's woes", go out and pay for some concert tickets. Buy some t-shirts and stickers from your favorite band. Go to shows. Buy t-shirts. Take you friends to the shows too. Buy t-shirts. Go to shows.

That's how 99.9% of musicians make their money. "The industry" wants you to buy the records. I WANT YOU TO COME SEE MY SHOWS.

This sounds familiar...

[elbo.ws]

"Uh...wtf? Is it even worth explaining why that makes no sense?"

every bit of music i bought last year was something i had got from oink as a taster, i often downloaded an album in flac and paid for the mp3 version without even downloading it.

@Black_Umbrella:

totally agree. ive gone to about 50 shows this year of artists i either recently discovered thru oinks (battles, the national) or artists i've grown to love more because of the availabitly of back catalogue (animal collective, dinosaur jr, yo la tengo).

at an average of 20 dollars a show, thats 1000 dollars on tickets alone. i probably bought merchandise at half the shows also whether a shirt or vinyl. thats another... 500 maybe.

i would not have paid 50 dollars for wilco if i hadnt downloaded all their albums! i would not have gone to 2 shows of beirut if i hadnt known how awesome the flying club cup is.

oinks helped me support the music industry. to all those bands i would probably like but i've not heard yet. im sorry but ... you'll have to wait for my money.