Idolator

What a bunch of bumblers! Maybe they should actually listen to the Kanye album before they open their traps. He addresses both women's independence (and their sacrifices for family) on "I Wonder", and body image (to some extent) on "Good Life." Also on "Good Life" he says "Let's go on a livin' spree." SO OBVIOUSLY HE WANTS TO SHOOT SOMEONE!

@kaate: Maybe they should actually listen to the Kanye album

You're asking too much of them!

Meh. It's a relatively popular site. It has open commenting. The core readership gets easily riled up by anything non-P.C., let alone blatant racism.

Ergo: trolls. It happens, dudes.

Hip-hop does have serious women (and gay) issues, but I seriously doubt that those commentators REALLY care about the portrayal of women in rap.

You know how I know you're gay? You used the melody of a song by Can.

Seriously though, what year is it? Hip hop is still controversial?

p.s. homophobia is bad; don't do homophobia.

@Lucas Jensen: Society as a whole has serious women and gay issues. Stereotyping an entire genre isn't the way I'd go about trying to change that.

Colin Meloy has more intelligence in his turds than these two idiots have in their combined brains. So, their richer. They'll end up riddn' with bullets. God bless 'em.

"Their." Love it.

This same guy goes on to say...

that's probably because you don't understand all the big words [Meloy] uses.

Amazing.

Here's an alternative explanation:

We were talking in another post about how stupid rap's gotten post-golden age. Many of these commenters are kids who were in preschool when the Biggie/Tupac shootings went down. Most of them don't remember a time when rap battles happened all the time on stage and in the studio and didn't end in murder. As heated as Kool Moe Dee and LL Cool J got on their respective diss tracks, neither of them ever pulled a pistol on the other.

I look at the 50/Kanye thing as a more corporate and orchestrated version of the old-fashioned rap battle, except they're unfortunately battling over Soundscans instead of rhymes. But anyone who seriously thinks 50's going to shoot Kanye is even dumber than 50 himself.

I've seen far worse on Gawker blogs. Have you read Deadspin?

@extracrispy: yeah! stupid jocks with their stupid stupidness!

"and it's all about degrading women and glorifying murder and gun violence too. i'm gonna buy some for my daughter now so she can learn to speak English incorrectly, grow up a "ho", and have a life of poverty!! Fun!!!!"

So... listening to rap makes you poor, now?
HOW DID WE NOT SEE THIS BEFORE!!!
omg guys, if we went around inner city areas, collecting hip hop records from the homes of the impoverished, we could end poverty! And make sure no one ever heard the lyrical genius of Promise ever again!

Please. Colin Meloy and his lowest common denominator indie blow.

The Kanye-vs.-50 thing has been very enlightening, inasmuch as I never realized how many people don't know that there's a difference between the two. I've actually heard Kanye referred to as a "thug."

@relaxing: Oh, please...don't pull the "whole SOCIETY has issues" card on me. Jeez. That's an extremely facile argument to make.

I'm not stereotyping an entire genre, but I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying that hip-hop wrangles with these issues more than most other genres (save dancehall?). Sure, there are some progressive rappers out there, but they are not the majority and have little street cred (which is something that I think should be addressed)? Hell, all of my black friends make fun of Outkast and Kanye, calling them "white folks rap." There are a lot more issues (racial, gender, economic, sexual identity), I think, to unpack with the hip-hop genre then, say, folk music or country.

Having said that, I think these Stereogum comments are completely dunderheaded and I bet half of them don't give a crap about women's rights or anti-violence or anything: it's just pure racism.

@extracrispy: One of the Kotaku writers runs GayGamer.net as well, and I've gotta say that I've been surprised by the way he's treated in the comments sections. Anything having to do with a hot girl, computer-generated or otherwise, however, descends into virtual salivating and cat-calling.

I've seen far worse on Gawker blogs. Have you read Deadspin?

Don't even try to compare this to Deadspin.

@extracrispy: Oooh. I smell an inter-Gawker feud a-brewin'!

And please. This is TOTALLY different from the types of comments on Deadspin.

@Lucas Jensen: Oh please your "oh please." Calling sexism and homophobia out as a societal problem rather than a hip hop problem is an easy argument to make, like the world is round and that water is wet. Here's a great recent example, Uncle Ted's recent album cover. My favorite part is that you try to skirt rock's issues (to name the most obvious comparison) with racial, gender, economic, sexual identity by comparing it to folk (?!?) and country. Yes, I can think of no more progressive and enlightened genre that country, particularly on matters of race and sexual identity.

I was born in 1978, so hip hop has always been present in my musically conscious life. Was music respectful of women before? Was "Lick it Up" about a chaste, adorable ice cream date (i.e. it's only right not to waste your butter pecan)?

@Chris N.: That reminds me of the time Page Six refered to Q-Tip as a "gangsta rapper".

Seriously guys, 'Ye wears argyle sweaters!

No. If you really want to see what a lack of thought and / or wit can create in an online world, feel free to jaunt over to any of the Bungie forums.

Even the worst Gawker commenter has, for the most part, a whole leg up on that purile shite.

And yes that was a hideous comparison, I'm sorry....

I think every genre is guilty of some form of sexualism and homophobia at one point or another, I mean look at Liza Minelli's last. It made me extremely uncomfortable.

To be a guy.

@janine: So, um, you're agreeing with me that making the argument that the world is homophobic and sexist is facile? It's oversimplified. It doesn't help deconstruct issues within an issue to skew it larger like that. Of course the world sucks and people are misogynistic, hateful, and homophobic. How does that help in our discussion of hip-hop except to obscure the issue at hand?

Hip-hop was extremely important to me to as a youth, too, (born in 1975), and I'm not skirting rock's problems by not mentioning them (Maura and I discussed Winger, Warrant, etc.), but c'mon here. Let's be frank...rock has lots of problems, but the diversity of viewpoint within rock makes it harder to categorize. I just don't see that within hip-hop.

Hip-hop is a very concrete genre. And much of the successful hip-hop out there is built on a foundation of sexism and homophobia. Can anyone deny this? And the days of politically conscious hip-hop like PE (who uncomfortably flirted with anti-semitism and some misogyny themselves) seem to have fallen by the wayside unless I'm listening to wrong stuff, which is entirely possible.

@Tenno: Crap like that is why highly trafficked sites should have comment moderation, or like Gawker Media, comment by invitation.

Yeah, trolls and asshats do get through (see: Consumerist) and some good would-be commenters might be discouraged, but it really helps with the signal-to-noise ratio.

@Charlie Kerfelds Jetsons Tee: Yeah, um, those Deadspin guys are scary. But there are normal people between the trolls. Sure, it's 1:3 regular to trolls, but they are there.

@janine: By the way, I like your take on "Lick It Up". It's much better that way.

@Lucas Jensen: Yeah, um, I'm one of those Deadspin guys.

@Lucas Jensen: All I'm saying is that I think this statement: "I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying that hip-hop wrangles with these issues more than most other genres..." is bullshit. You seem to think it's an issue you can attack by looking at the specific genre, and I think that it's viewed within the context of popular culture as a whole. Look at the sales of hip hop. Even in the current slump, this is more than a niche market that's buying it. Why treat it like a niche, genre-specific problem?

And on the rock thing, on one hand you can say that rock is diverse. On the other, you can say that it's still dominated by men, with some token women artists and a smattering of lady bass players. Oh, and the discourse is almost entirely controlled by men. Homophobia and sexism (which again, you say isn't a problem in country, ha) is an ingredient that goes into nearly every American pop culture muffin but flavors it differently. You cannot argue that rock isn't sexist as a whole. (Unless you think rock=indie rock.)

I'm not saying you can't talk about a genre specifically or anything, but it's mighty convenient to point the finger at a genre that acts differently than yours and say that it has a bigger problem because you can see it better.

I hate that "um" thing. I used to do it, but now I see that it's the written version of adjusting your glasses significantly. (know-it-all-sy)

@Lucas Jensen: Thank you very much, sorry I was so hard on the Beav in my last comment. To be sure, I mean it.

Alternate headline for this post: When Exactly Did Idolator's Comments Section Turn Into The Gawker Media's Vehicle For Promoting Their Sister Sites?

@janine: Well, not to turn this into a huge issue, but I don't see how you can deny that hip-hop tends to be more homophobic than rock. I try to be open-minded about these issues as a gay man, but at the same time, hearing the garbage that pours out of Eminem's mouth about gay people is something I have to navigate if I want to enjoy his music. And didn't Ja Rule just bitch about gay people last week? I rarely encounter these issues with the rock and dance I listen to. In fact, I can listen to people like Peaches, who are openly advocating gay sex. Those genres seem like a safer haven for gay people who don't want to encounter negative language.

That being said, it would of course be ridiculous to simply ignore or write-off hip-hop. One of the most enjoyable club nights I go to is a gay hip-hop night, and it is partially enjoyable because we, as a community, are reappropriating this music in a context it probably wasn't intended for. We're still enjoying the music (because it is incredibly enjoyable) but we're trying to navigate these very tricky waters in a positive way.

@The Mozfather: I guess I'm arguing about what you mean by "the hip hop community" when the music sells so widely. There are a lot of people buying it, if album sales are to be believed. Based on these kinds of numbers, how do you address hip hop as "the hip hop community" when it looks to be more indicative of young/youngish America? Look at any Top 40 chart in recent memory and tell me we're talking about a discreet community.

And I know we all love the online music community, but Peaches is not indicative of "rock." You want to talk about actually discreet niches (certain neighborhoods in large cities)...

Early hip hop drew heavily on Five Percenter arcania, which, along with a lot of fascinating wordplay and elaborate numerology, contained some rather limited ideas about gays and women. The scene has since branched out considerably, and takes good care of its dissenters. (I can't think of a regular Pitchfork contributor as humanistic or even-handed as Jay Smooth, or any Dischord band as abraisively righteous as NYOil.) Still, rappers express some bullshit opinions when they comment on things they know nothing about... just like ignorant indie-drones. But any C-list Wu Tang weed carrier could atomize Colin Meloy in a freestyle battle.

@HarveyWallbanger: Shit's gettin' meta.

@janine: Well, I never said "hip-hop community" so I don't really think your response applies. I'm talking specifically about hip-hop lyrics and the public statements hip-hop artists make. And just to make this clear, I think country is probably just as homophobic as hip-hop, but in a negative way (they tend to simply and rigidly exclude it). But I can ignore country cause I find it dull, and hip-hop isn't.

And I think you're being stubborn here, because I don't know how you can possibly disagree with me. Whereas rock has had figures like David Bowie or Elton John or even just people like Kurt Cobain who were very open to homosexuality, I challenge you to name one major figure in hip-hop who has been comparable.

I'm waiting for the day when someone like Lil Wayne, Missy or Timbaland comes out of the closet, but considering that these people have already endured a maelstrom of shit about this issue, I don't know if it'll ever happen.

@The Mozfather: Fine, you're only talking about the artists that make it rather than the millions who endorse it by buying it. On that score, you win.

Me? I'm saying that there are so many people from so many backgrounds buying into it that it is a societal issue. So yes, I agree that hip hop has more high-profile homophobic and sexist content compared to rock. I don't agree, in light of the audience size, that you can get a lot of value from looking at it as a hip hop thing rather than an American youth thing. That's was I was saying to LJ, and reworded for you, because your comment was beside my point.

@janine: Well obvs thirteen-year old kids are homophobic and misogynistic. But thirteen-year old kids used to be exposed to some more progressive stuff - say in the early 1990s - and it sold ridiculously well. And I think we could all agree that hip-hop was a lot more progressive (at least politically) back then with stuff like PE (but still not so hot on some other issues).

So I guess you're asking, is it the chicken or the egg? The audience or the creative figure? I think our disagreement is due to fact that you want to hold the audience responsible and not the artists, and I want it the other way around. Mainly because it is clear - from the success of someone like Kanye - that you can pretty much steer clear of homophobia and still do well.

I totally agree that hate in mainstream North America is a huge issue that has nothing to do with hip-hop. One of my friends was nearly gay-bashed to death in a rural town by kids who probably exclusively listened to cock rock. But without aggressively progressive influential figures in the mainstream, how will the audience ever have a choice for something different?

@The Mozfather: I don't know, though I think it's a good sign that Kanye beat 50. The fact that Curtis sucks helps, too. Alls I know is that if the audience buys shit, record companies will put their money behind the dumbest stuff, and they'll put the backpackers in a corner. If there wasn't an audience for it, intolerant rappers would be doing shows in empty rooms and interviews in the mirror holding a hairbrush.

@janine: I totally agree.

And sorry if you feel I side-swiped you there. I know you are a thoughtful person and that's why I felt compelled to respond.

I do think the general vibe of hip hop in America degrades women. Many of you may be too young to remember a day when women were not routinely called bitches and hos in popular music.

I'm only being mildly facetious when I ask this: How many of you all are black? There is nothing that amuses me more than listening to suburban, middle class whites discuss the state of hip hop when the majority of them haven't explored the genre outside of top 40 music. I'm not trying to be sanctimonious or act superior; however one point to consider (and I apologize if this was already made, I started to skim the comments after awhile) is that homophobia isn't necessarily a "hip hop" problem. It's more of a cultural issue, not unlike Mexican males battling the weight of homophobia and machismo. I think we can agree that hip hop music is produced predominantly by black musicians, while other genres, such as rock, are usually white. (Not saying whites can't be homophobic. They can. However, it's a lot different being white and gay and being black and gay and people's responses to it are varying, as well.)

I sincerely hope this isn't misconstrued as me saying all black people hate gays or whatever. I'm not. Okay. There was my disclaimer.

All that said, the gay/coldplay zinger was hilarious.

@twenties: I'm only being mildly facetious when I ask this: How many of you all are black?
I am. I'm also a Canuck.

@The Mozfather: Nope, not sideswiped. I just get exasperated when I feel misunderstood, which means the people who drink with me are real heroes.

@twenties: Not only am I Black, but I'm from the South and know the minor pentatonic scale (with and without slide). I own every Earth, Wind, & Fire album on vinyl. If I picked up the bass, I'd arguably become double-fudge. Seriously, I know what you're saying. The homophobia you see in hip hop lyrics are no less there in the Black community at large. Remember the "Down Low" panic? (The gays will kill us all with their AIDS and icky gayness!) You see so-called respectable pillars of the community saying some crazy stuff.

@ CHARLIE KERFELDS JETSONS TEE.

Yeah, that was me he was responding to. I didn't want to point out the grievous errors he was making while arguing that I was an idiot, but I just didn't feel like taking it down to that. I'm truly glad somebody did. So thank you. And Colin Meloy IS boring, especially in the bizarro world battle that is Kanye vs. the Decemberists. I'll Kanye's brand of hip-hop over the Decemberists oh-so-whimsy-filled, pretentious and bland indie rock every time. I've even TRIED to like them. Snooze.

Colin Meloy has more intelligence in his turds than these two idiots have in their combined brains. So, their richer. They'll end up riddn' with bullets. God bless 'em.

Posted by: uyuyuy at September 19, 2007 6:20 PM

If you're going to call someone else stupid for their use (or misuse) of the English language, at least try to do it with correct grammar.