<![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score - Idolator Comments]]> http://cache.gawker.com/assets/base/img/thumbs140x140/idolator.com.png <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score - Idolator Comments]]> http://idolator.com Fri, 26 Oct 2007 08:13:24 EDT Fri, 26 Oct 2007 08:13:24 EDT http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2782072 wow I was gonna give Al an 85, but 88 is right, yes

roquestrew

]]> 33:311722:c2782072 Fri, 26 Oct 2007 08:13:24 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2756003 Trackback

]]> 33:311722:c2756003 Wed, 24 Oct 2007 10:19:53 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2710939 As entertaining an examination that article was, I'm totally fucking indifferent about how white indie shit is. I only care about whether it's good or not.

Al aka El Negro Magnifico

]]> 33:311722:c2710939 Fri, 19 Oct 2007 05:01:56 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2698331 @musicquizking: SAY WORD SON. yet another irony/contradiction - aside from the token reference to the fiery furnaces, this whole article is an (uncomfortable) sausage party. not that there aren't way, way more male-dominated bands out there, but it doesn't help sf/j's cause. . .whatever it is. and conveniently ignores some of the artists that i suspect might meet sf/j's critera. . .whatever they are.

thearcanemodel

]]> 33:311722:c2698331 Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:57:42 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2698310 I think SFJ has a good point: Why can't music i don't like sound like music i like? Lord knows i'd be more likely to listen to Grizzly Bear if they sounded more like Curtis Mayfield.

bg5000

]]> 33:311722:c2698310 Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:56:08 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2698172 I refuse to believe that someone who licked Spoon's boots could actually criticize anyone for liking "white music."

Echoing everyone who wrote that it reads like a bad blog entry. I suppose part of being in the creative underclass means you don't get a New Yorker salary when you write a terrible entry.

(And I'm still trying to figure out what Wilco has to do with his thesis. If he's trying to say that Wilco is white music, well, sure, but the digression is just bizarrely written.)

King of Pants

]]> 33:311722:c2698172 Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:45:39 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2695614 funny. but i think the best response i've seen to this is the dialogue on status ain't hood, one of my favorite blogs, but in this case, not because of tom breihan. [www.villagevoice.com] rob harvilla, get out of my head! he does a very good job of respectfully pointing out the many, many flaws/dangerous comparisions in the article, and the many contradictions with sf/j's own previously stated opinions about some of these bands. (i think we can all agree, though, that isaac brock = totes the eddie vedder of now in terms of spawning painfully bad vocal imitators.)

it's a shame, because lord knows there is a lot of milquetoast crap out there right now, and lord knows that 'indie rock,' to the extent there is a consensus definition of that term, still has some problematic tendencies wrt race and gender. and i generally think that sf/j is a thoughtful writer. this is just not the correct argument to be made.

as another blogger once pertinently stated, "NO HAVE TO LOVE COKE-RAP! CAN! NO HAVE TO!" [gerardvsbear.blogspot.com] (for the record, i own/like the clipse record. but i think the point is well taken.)

thearcanemodel

]]> 33:311722:c2695614 Thu, 18 Oct 2007 00:07:08 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2695392 @Alfred Soto: 88.

Lucas Jensen

]]> 33:311722:c2695392 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 23:21:19 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2695342 @plasticaisle: When he said, during Merrittgate, that he didn't even know the Magnetic Fields music that well, I kinda lost a little respect for him because he sounded like one of those conservatives who derides a "controversial" movie without ever seeing it. Plus, not liking 69 Love Songs? That's just stupid. There are other musical idioms out there. I say let bands make the music they're going to make. I'm sure he can find stuff influenced by more African-American music out there. And, hell, all my indie rock buddies ever talk about is how they want to make their music "blacker" but they don't know how. People learn to make music in different idioms. There's a guy I know here in the ATH who writes pretty much twee-pop only but listens to nothing but raw garage-y rock stuff. He once told me it's the only thing he knows how to do. It doesn't mean he doesn't like that kind of thing.

I love Sly and the Family Stone more than anything but I'll be goddamned if I know how to write a song like them. I wouldn't even know where to start!

Lucas Jensen

]]> 33:311722:c2695342 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 23:11:38 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2694262 Where the white women at?

musicquizking

]]> 33:311722:c2694262 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 20:15:54 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2693998 God, I'm dying to know how I'd rate on the SFJ scale.

Alfred Soto

]]> 33:311722:c2693998 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 19:43:57 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2693834 @Cam/ron:
Totally agree nearly 100% with what you write. I would also say that rock critics should also have broader taste than SFJ. If you are going to be a pop music critic, at least leave your issues and broad biases at the door. He so clearly doesn't like music based in folk and/or European styles and seems annoyed that artists would actually have the gall to be influenced or inspired by them (the whole ridiculous Merritt debacle being the best example of this). As if listening to Anne Briggs or the Clientele was somehow the same as listening to Prussian Blue.

Not sure why is it a bad thing that SOME indie rock is moving away from tradition blues structures. So he doesn't like it. Big deal. He seems to imply that there's an undercurrent of racial tension and/or awareness informing what tastes people have. I just don't buy it. If anything, most people I know have broader taste than they did 10-20 years ago. His is a simplistic argument that I don't think holds much weight. It does, however, make for good dialogue. In that regard, SFJ's done his job.

plasticaisle

]]> 33:311722:c2693834 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 19:24:39 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2692242 Who's whiter: REM circa Monster, or Belle and Sebastian?

MrStarhead

]]> 33:311722:c2692242 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:11:16 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2691728 A couple years back I went to a real (i.e. not backpacker) hiphop show with Sasha Frere-Jones (along with some other friends who actually knew him), and I can say that I have never seen one man look more like an undercover drug narc trying to act hip than him. White, black, whatever, all I know was that I was embarrassed to be seen standing next to him. It was totally like "white step-dad's first rap concert."

qyntellspitbull

]]> 33:311722:c2691728 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:42:47 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2691193 Last time I saw Dan Deacon I counted exactly one other black person in the audience besides myself. I give it to him that it was one diverse than the last time I saw Do Make Say Think.

Airsank

]]> 33:311722:c2691193 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:10:32 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2690823 @therichgirlsareweeping:

Yeah I was going to say that."Miscegenation" has been used as a derogatory word (namely by Southern white nationalists) for decades. SFJ might as well dropped "mongrelization" in his article.

Cam/ron

]]> 33:311722:c2690823 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:49:28 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2690577 Apropos of something, SFJ's continued use of the word miscegenation makes me truly ill. Come on, is it really necessary to use a term so loaded with negative historical and cultural baggage? Believe me, it's not on par with "reclaiming" fag or something -- it's intentionally button-pushy and sophomoric.

@relaxing: If that's the case, he didn't need to spend 1/3 of the article bashing the Arcade Fire, one of whose members is of Hatiain descent. Tacky.

My biggest problem with the piece in question is that it reads like bad blogging, something that was rotting on SFJ's hard drive for months, possibly abandoned -- and OH NOES! he needed to meet a deadline and had no other content ready. Sometimes I think I'm really more dismayed that this passed muster with the editors at the New Yorker. Then again, the same people let Merritt-gate through too.

Then again, people, this is the man who's trying to convince us that Vampire Weekend's "Upper West Side soweto" (one of the most offensive New York City band since oh ... O'Death) is something to be lauded. WHATEVS.

the rich girls are weeping

]]> 33:311722:c2690577 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:37:07 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2689709 ...and really, isn't The New Yorker just the PERFECT forum for a discourse on the disappointing lack of African American influence in today's indie music?

I mean, its demographic is like so totally diverse.

cough.

gag.

craftysam

]]> 33:311722:c2689709 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:50:50 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2689635 The SFJ piece wasn't a sequel to last year's legendary "Merrittgate" blowup, but he still dug another hole for himself to fall into. He was mainly decrying the bland, formulaic, and conservative nature of many indie rock bands and I agree with him on that part. I also respect his attempt at being provocative (i.e. "Has Indie Rock Lost Its Soul?" OMG, Indie is SOULESS! Now, that sells magazines).
Overall, he brought up an interesting topic that ultimately went nowhere. He kept focusing on the alleged lack of rhythm in indie rock, while failing to address how indie bands instead emphansize harmony, timbre and melody - all of which are not exclusively "white" traits (just listen to jazz, gospel and soul). Also, contrary to his argument, I believe that identity politics, not "political correctness" were what hindered rock's miscegenation. I agree that SFJ has given a lose-lose situation for indie. It reminds me of the game that critics play when they accuse Caucasian artists of adopting black influences of committing "appropriation" or theft, and then when Caucascian artists keep their hands to themselves and develop their own sound, they are accused of committing "whiteness" or worse, "white supremacy."


Cam/ron

]]> 33:311722:c2689635 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:46:46 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2689275 I mean, where's the outcry since Radiohead never followed up on the Afro-American spiritual handclaps and talking blues of Hail to the Thief?

relaxing

]]> 33:311722:c2689275 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:26:17 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2689167 If you read to the end of his article, the point seems to be "who needs white people trying to sound black when black people is all you can find on MTV anyway these days."

Is that so wrong?

relaxing

]]> 33:311722:c2689167 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:20:54 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2689084 @Nicolars: If only.

Ned Raggett

]]> 33:311722:c2689084 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:16:21 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2688872 this whole thing reminds me of that scene in the simpsons where the chris-rock-a-like describes how white folk and black folk drive a car in different ways. to which homer (frere-jones) replies "yeah, we do suck".

ass-hat

]]> 33:311722:c2688872 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:04:24 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2688855 You can't be a racist if your band has two whole Asianz now? That's pretty newsy.

Whoever said this whole situation is lose-lose is totally right. I think the most important thing to remember is that the crowds at the shows will still be snow white. And America, that's all that matters.

ambitious

]]> 33:311722:c2688855 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:03:34 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2688833 @jessdolator: And the Kinks, of course, are about 45!

jobbotch

]]> 33:311722:c2688833 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:02:13 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2688680 I didn't have big beef with the article because I think Sasha is smart enough to know that there are significant exceptions to the rule and that he's writing more about a general trend. Yes, LCD Soundsystem and M.I.A. exist, but they're not what I think of when I think of "indie rock."

One thing I wish he had touched on more was that, while white indie bands may be stealing less and less from black artists, prominent black artists are borrowing more and more from "white" genres. Look at all the New-Wave sounding Timbaland songs, the rockiness of "Shut Up and Drive," or even all the "Rock Star" songs. Outkast, etc. There's musical miscagenation going on, it's just going the other way.

Fraid

]]> 33:311722:c2688680 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:55:40 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2688412 Too bad that Celebration gig got shut down; they at least rate in the like, high 80's, right? Maybe?

the rich girls are weeping

]]> 33:311722:c2688412 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:42:31 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2688264 all will be revealed tomorrow, but now i'm off to listen to more indie rock.

Jess Harvell

]]> 33:311722:c2688264 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:35:10 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2688201 Just to establish some ground rules here, whose a "1" and whose a "100"? The Decemberists/Jamie Lidell? The Mountain Goats/Amy Winehouse?

Fraid

]]> 33:311722:c2688201 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:31:12 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2688113 I kind of love this too. Although, geez, will the race-and-music debate ever move past black and white? Ever? I got so cranky during that whole "is Stephin Merritt a racist" flap because no one seemed to notice (or care) that two of Merritt's bandmates are um ASIAN.

Then again, I guess there hasn't been a vast Asian contribution to American pop music... hmm. Cornershop?

millwhistle

]]> 33:311722:c2688113 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:26:24 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2688105 But will it pay for my hard drive?

Nicolars

]]> 33:311722:c2688105 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:26:15 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2688033 Um, oh my fuck yes? I didn't write in asking for comment, but there's so much wrong with that article I found myself kinda putting down the magazine every few minutes to let the anger die down. This is awesome.

RickSlick

]]> 33:311722:c2688033 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:23:01 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2687975 Yeah, this post made me throw up in my mouth.

MTS

]]> 33:311722:c2687975 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:20:05 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2687837 According to this scale, Stew from the Negro Problem is whiter than Stephin Merritt.

queensissy

]]> 33:311722:c2687837 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:12:13 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2687805 @Fraid: yes. once i work out the kinks in the equation, i'll post the formula.

Jess Harvell

]]> 33:311722:c2687805 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:09:26 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2687765 I kind of love this. I also kind of love how the whole situation is completely lose-lose for everyone.

Diglett

]]> 33:311722:c2687765 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:07:12 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2687738 Soon Sasha will be going up and down subway cars erasing MP3s on everyone's ipod that don't adhere to his ethic standards of Rainbow Coalitioning. The next L Train is now arriving on the Rockaway Parkway Bound track.

paulrevere

]]> 33:311722:c2687738 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:05:17 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2687737 SFJ scale = 1-100, 100 being the blackest, I assume?

Fraid

]]> 33:311722:c2687737 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:05:16 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2687644 the fools! don't hey remember the great Jesus Jones/"let's make white people funkier!" debacle of 1990?

CharlesRockyPamplin

]]> 33:311722:c2687644 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:59:53 EDT <![CDATA[Is Indie Rock Black Enough? Presenting The Sasha Frere-Jones Score]]> http://idolator.com/tunes/race-relations/is-indie-rock-black-enough-presenting-the-sasha-frere+jones-score-311722.php#c2687607 This just made my day.

King of Pants

]]> 33:311722:c2687607 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:58:14 EDT